Linux-Advocacy Digest #196, Volume #30 Sun, 12 Nov 00 19:13:03 EST
Contents:
Re: NT/2000 true multiuser? (The Great Suprendo)
Re: Linux + KDE2 = 8) (Bas van der Meer)
Re: Linux + KDE2 = 8) (Pete Goodwin)
Re: Of course, there is a down side... ("Ayende Rahien")
Re: Of course, there is a down side... (Gary Hallock)
Re: Lets try serious advocacy/discussion. (Pete Goodwin)
Re: Journaling FS Question (Was: Re: Of course, there is a down side...) ("Les
Mikesell")
Re: The Sixth Sense (Goldhammer)
Re: Windoze 2000 - just as shitty as ever ("Les Mikesell")
Re: NT/2000 true multiuser? (Pete Goodwin)
Re: NT/2000 true multiuser? (Pete Goodwin)
Re: A Microsoft exodus! ("Les Mikesell")
Re: A Microsoft exodus! ("Les Mikesell")
Re: Windoze 2000 - just as shitty as ever (Giuliano Colla)
Re: A Microsoft exodus! ("Les Mikesell")
Re: A Microsoft exodus! ("Les Mikesell")
Re: A Microsoft exodus! (dc)
Re: NT/2000 true multiuser? (The Great Suprendo)
Re: NT/2000 true multiuser? (Charles M)
Re: True GTK+ will eliminate Qt in next few years? (Paul Seelig)
Re: A Microsoft exodus! ("Les Mikesell")
Re: The Sixth Sense ("Bruce Schuck")
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: The Great Suprendo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: NT/2000 true multiuser?
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 22:43:23 +0000
A certain Russ Lyttle, of comp.os.linux.advocacy "fame", writes :
>Notice how it is always the stupid users or stupid Admins, never the
>stupid OS?
Poor workman who blames his tools and all that. Not much an OS can do
about unannounced s/w upgrades.
--
ROAR UP MY TWAT!!!
------------------------------
From: Bas van der Meer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linux + KDE2 = 8)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 23:48:51 +0100
Pete Goodwin wrote:
> For a few nights now, I've been running Linux + KDE2. Makes a big change
> from Windows 98 SE with the freezes, hangs and blue screens.
>
> Hey, it's a really nice desktop... finally things are usable, rather than
> the myriad collection of mismatch software, KDE have produced a rather
> nice package.
>
> Now if only my sound card worked (well, I've got a replacement that Linux
> supports, so that's ok), and boot worked, and KWord was a bit faster...
Pete, what sound card do you have? If it's an on-board VIA soundcard (as
often with recent AMD Athlon/Duron motherboards) you should configure
ALSA-sound module instead of the regular one.
------------------------------
From: Pete Goodwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linux + KDE2 = 8)
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 22:50:48 +0000
Les Mikesell wrote:
> I thought you said you turned off your DNS to cause this to break.
If I close down dialup, smb: stops working. It seems that Linux is trying
to use DNS from dialup which is no longer there. I'm not sure how to
configure the system to ONLY use DNS when dialup is present.
--
Pete, running KDE2 on Linux Mandrake 7.2
------------------------------
From: "Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Of course, there is a down side...
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 00:48:08 +0200
"Les Mikesell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:M_EP5.19665$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> I mean that the 3-set combination lets you describe permission for
> any group that you create. If you arbitrarily want to describe
> permissions that don't match a group, ACLs let you do it.
Why would I want to be limited to groups?
> > By talking about tighter control I'm talking about the ability to grant
> > different file permissions to individuals or groups to much higher
degree
> > than I can on linux.
>
> That isn't 'tighter'. It is just the ability to let your permissions
> diverge
> from your group definitions.
Which is highly useful all too often.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 17:49:20 -0500
From: Gary Hallock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Of course, there is a down side...
Ayende Rahien wrote:
>
>
> WINE can't handle notepad to perfection, you expect it to do more complex
> things?
Why not? Wine handles Lotus Notes quite well.
>
>
> > I have seent hat program (forgot the name) that can run multiple OSs
> > simultaneously. That, I would consider, but it is $100 plus I would have
> to
> > buy more RAM I figure. So, it isn't a cheap/free option either.
>
> It's called VMware, I believe.
> Allows you to run windows from linux or vice versa.
There is also Win4Lin at about half the price of Vmware.
Gary
------------------------------
From: Pete Goodwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Lets try serious advocacy/discussion.
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 22:58:13 +0000
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >Try reading a 100k log file that Windows created when it booted, esp. if
> >you're trying to work out why it didn't work. Notepad will refer you to
> >WordPad.
>
> And it does so automatically with no intervention from the user.
Yeah, but I'd rather it didn't have to do that!
> >If you add hardware, ...
> Plug and play or USB trivial under recent versions of Windows. A
> nightmare under any version of Linux.
Plug and play seems to work (well, apart from SB16) and USB seems fine.
> I liked Mandrake 7.0 / 7.1 but after using it for several weeks I
> found that the ordinary tasks I do under Windows are more of a pain in
> the ass with Linux for me.
I found the tasks I do on Windows fitted very well into KDE 2.0 on Linux...
> As an example reading news. I had to set up
> 4 different programs (leafnode, slrn and the editor and spell checker)
> then I had to fire off leafnode to retrieve messages. If I wanted to
> go back a day or 2 in a group to check something I had to play with
> config files. Read one group while another was downloading? Change the
> colors, same thing. Attachments are another mixed bag along with html.
> It's a real pain in the ass. I tried pan but could not get it working
> on my system as it kept freezing on me.
KNode is a very good newsreader, supports image viewing and attachments.
> Printing was another problem.
> I was stuck with a monochrome printer.
My printer works under Linux but I'm not sure it's working that well.
> I didn't like the way the
> screen fonts looked even with ttfonts running.
I wouldn't disagree with you on that one!
> The permissions thing
> was another pain, su'ing to root all the time to do things is just
> extra steps.
After using OpenVMS and NTFS on Windows NT, file protection etc. is no big
deal.
> My scanner didn't work.
My HP 4200C isn't supported (last I looked).
> My wheel mouse half worked in
> that the wheel worked but you had to click on the window first where
> as under Windows it hovers and knows what window you want to scroll.
My mousewheel works for the first time on Mandrake 7.2
> Also how do I assign functions to the other 4 buttons? Trivial under
> Windows.
I never used that function, so if it's not there, I don't miss it!
> Finally I realized that I was spending too much time fiddling with
> Linux to customize to work as easily as Windows does for me and that
> is why I dumped it.
Apart from the network problems, so far so good.
> If you can perform all of your functions as easily under Linux as you
> can under Windows then by all means use it. For me it wasn't even
> close.
I'm looking for a stable platform. Windows isn't it - I don't like my
desktop to just STOP dead on me. KDE2 seems to have a few hiccups but it's
getting there.
--
Pete, running KDE2 on Linux Mandrake 7.2
------------------------------
From: "Les Mikesell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Journaling FS Question (Was: Re: Of course, there is a down side...)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 22:58:01 GMT
"Seán Ó Donnchadha" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> "Les Mikesell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >
> >I thought they only journal the metadata, not the file contents.
> >
>
> I've heard this claim a bunch of times and am puzzled by it (I am not
> an expert in file systems). What exactly would be the point of the
> file system journaling the file contents? After all, as long as the
> metadata is properly journaled, the file system can always be
> recovered to a valid state in case of a crash. As for file contents, I
> don't see how the file system can guarantee anything. For example, if
> an app requires two file calls to save its data in a valid state, then
> there's nothing the OS can do if a crash happens after the first call
> but before the second. I suspect I'm missing something, though.
The thing you are missing is that journaling does not mean you won't
lose anything, it means that the operations are ordered so you can
always recover to a consistent state. Journaling metadata means that
the directory structure and free space tables are always consistent
or at least recoverable even though any particular file's contents
may not be correct. Journaling everything usually requires writing
changes to a log, performing the real update, then clearing the log
so that incomplete operations remain in the log and can be completed
during recovery. Making this set of steps come close to the speed
of non-journaled operations is non-trivial.
Les Mikesell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Goldhammer)
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: The Sixth Sense
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 22:58:49 GMT
On Sun, 12 Nov 2000 22:26:24 GMT,
Les Mikesell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>I take it that is the Microsoft's pretense of portability. Just
>as warped as usual.
People who indoctrinate themselves into Microsoft's way
of thinking do indeed develop some very odd notions. You will
note these yourself as you observe the logic displayed by
some MS users.
Some common trends:
1. A database is a file. For many people who were raised
on MS Access, this bizarre notion is so deeply ingrained
in their mind, that no force in the universe can ever
explain to them otherwise. If your database management
setup doesn't let you pack everything into one big file,
then they consider it kludged or broken, and no amount
of argumentation can ever dissuade them.
2. A portable application is one which can be easily
carried from one Windows installation to another. This
is what Bruce had in mind when he told me that Jet is
the right choice for "easy portability".
3. An OS is something that runs on an x86. If you review
the threads concerning >2Gb databases and also the
threads discussing ext2, you simply cannot avoid concluding
that some MS users have this notion deeply rooted in their
brains.
--
Don't think you are. Know you are.
------------------------------
From: "Les Mikesell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze 2000 - just as shitty as ever
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 23:00:24 GMT
"Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
>>
> > On the other hand, some users can become bored with default settings and
> > want to try something new - Our secretary at work knows very little
about
> > computers (she types with 2 fingers) yet every day she seems to have a
> > different
> > colour scheme (she likes to play with these things when bored). Imagine
> the
> > fun
> > she could have if she could use a different window manager every day or
> even
> > just change theme on one window manager - even total newbies can work
out
> > how to do these things if / when they want to.
>
> A> She can.
> B> I'm not talking about ancedotal stories, I'm talking about the majority
> of the of them.
You mean the ones that like to get new screensavers as email
attachments and double-click to install them?
Les Mikesell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: Pete Goodwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: NT/2000 true multiuser?
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 23:03:36 +0000
Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
> > Oh yes I forgot about that. However, you can't actually do a great deal
> can
> > you? If you run notepad, it pops up as a window on the main screen!
>
> No, it doesn't. Try running an X program from a telnet login, what
> happens?
If you're not running a terminal server on NT, then notepad runs on the
main screen, not where you're running the DOS prompt.
On X you can redirect the display to your own screen, provided you're
running an X server.
I'm used to OpenVMS and DECWindows. We used to run terminals across X quite
happily. On a basic NT system (no extra software) you can't do anything
like it, except have a DOS style prompt. You certainly can't run notepad on
one machine and display on another.
--
Pete, running KDE2 on Linux Mandrake 7.2
------------------------------
From: Pete Goodwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: NT/2000 true multiuser?
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 23:06:00 +0000
The Great Suprendo wrote:
> Yes you can, with terminal services, built into W2K and works right out
> of the box. Get a clue folks, before spreading misinformation.
Terminal services are built into W2K? I thought you had to buy an extra
product to get that to work. That's very interesting! I'll go looking for
that on my Win2k machines at work. Is that on Win2K Professional or the
other versions?
--
Pete, running KDE2 on Linux Mandrake 7.2
------------------------------
From: "Les Mikesell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: A Microsoft exodus!
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 23:06:51 GMT
"Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> >
> > As far as I can tell there isn't a 'right' association that correctly
> > matches
> > the differences between email attachments and files.
>
> No, because the associations are system wide and are there for comfort and
> ease-of-use.
No, grouping a set of similar things with default associations would
provide comfort and ease-of-use. Including dissimilar things into
the same defaults is a deception that causes confusion.
> The only *right* way to handle those things is to educate the user.
But then they would insist on switching to a different OS. Are you sure you
want to recommend that?
Les Mikesell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: "Les Mikesell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: A Microsoft exodus!
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 23:08:32 GMT
"Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:3a0eda7b$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> >
> >
> > You forgot .DOC and .XLS. :-)
>
> They are not executables, they need Word/Excel to open them, and then
you've
> a message asking you whatever you want to run the macro or not.
Is it different based on whether the input comes from a trusted source
or not?
Les Mikesell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: Giuliano Colla <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze 2000 - just as shitty as ever
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 23:10:52 GMT
Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
>
> "Giuliano Colla" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > I agree with you that it's a very unlikely thing to happen. Maybe it's
> > related to other unlikely conditions. Perhaps you've noticed that in NT
> > if you alter your network setting it turns out that your shared
> > directories still appear to be shared (the icon is that of a shared
> > thing) but actually they aren't. You must remove the sharing and then
> > share again. At this point the folder or the drive is again visible
> > netwise (rather crappy, but it works like that).
>
> Actually, it's supposed to work that way. The folders *ARE* still shared,
> they're just shared to a non-existing IP network binding. The reason for
> this is that you might change or remove the network binding and then
> re-install it (say, you're installing a second network card, and you want to
> make sure it works before removing the other one, then changing the bindings
> back to the first for the new card).
>
> If you did that, all your network shares would be deleted. So it's a
> give-and-take situation. Neither way of doing it would work for everybody.
> It just turns out that the way you want it to work is not the way they
> chose.
I take your word, but I retain some doubts. I have the strong feeling of
having done just that, i.e. changed a setting and then put back the
original one, and not having been able to have the sharing restored
until I removed and then shared again. It was a matter of fixed TCP/IP
address versus DHCP. But I'm not fully sure, so I can't claim it's
really so.
>
> > I only mentioned it because Ayende appeared not to believe that a BSOD
> > may come out of a drag-and-drop operation (which actually I too have
> > experienced a few times). So I brought forward my experience of an even
> > simpler operation which *may* produce a BSOD.
>
> Are you talking about NT4 or 2000?
NT4.
------------------------------
From: "Les Mikesell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: A Microsoft exodus!
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 23:11:25 GMT
"Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> >
> > > Your problem.
> > > You *choose* to intetionly remain ignorant, that is your own problem.
> >
> > If you think memorizing a VBS icon is a step on the path of knowledge,
> > suit yourself.
>
> Did you ever admin a linux machine?
> You've to remember *way* more than a silly icon.
You don't have to remember anything - it is logical enough that you can
make it up as you go along.
Les Mikesell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: "Les Mikesell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: A Microsoft exodus!
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 23:17:01 GMT
"Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:3a0eda81$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> > >
> > > Do you handle those machines/users in person?
> > >
> >
> > Generally no. I only get involved when the windows guys can't make
> > things work and start blaming the servers or network.
>
> IOW, you've no direct experiance with normal users.
> You've never had to deal with them, you deal with much more knowledgable
> users.
> You've no idea why certain things are built the way they are, and you
attack
> them without any knowledge of why they are built this way.
Just the opposite. I see all the worst problems that are a direct result
of the way things are built. Sort of like emergency room workers
learning a bit about various automobile design defects. If the only
time you see an OS is on isolated machine you aren't in much of
a position to judge its security features.
Les Mikesell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: dc <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: A Microsoft exodus!
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 17:14:45 -0600
On Sun, 12 Nov 2000 20:36:53 GMT, "Les Mikesell"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>"dc" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>> >>
>> >> I don't know about you, but I control my associations and hence I'm the
>> >> one determining which application is used and not the sender.
>> >
>> >How nice for you. If you would like to do the same for a few hundred
>> >people in remote offices and check them after every program
>> >install then I could be as safe as if they used a reasonable program.
>> >If you aren't willing to do that, don't try to tell me it isn't a real
>> >problem.
>>
>> Sounds like you've got a security problem - which is easily solveable.
>> Just run Windows NT / Win2k and lock down the security on the
>> workstations.
>
>What changes would you make that would allow all normal email
>messages to be safely viewed without encouraging the users to
>save unviewed attachments to files? And again, please don't
>say something is easy if you aren't offering to do it for all my
>remote offices.
Disable write permissions. Pretty simple there, Les!
>> >> Take for example, I associated .reg files with my text editor. Are you
>> >> saying that if a sender sends me a file with a .reg extension with the
>> >> intention of messing up my registry, that they will determine what
>> >> application is used to run the reg file (regedit in this case)?
>> >
>> >Until you reinstall the OS, or a program that decides to make
>> >itself the default handler for something.
>>
>> Can't be done if you apply the right security. Why haven't you done
>> so?
>
>As far as I can tell there isn't a 'right' association that correctly
>matches
>the differences between email attachments and files.
Having security means the user can't change it - which means a macro
can't change it, either.
------------------------------
From: The Great Suprendo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: NT/2000 true multiuser?
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 23:09:57 +0000
A certain Pete Goodwin, of comp.os.linux.advocacy "fame", writes :
>The Great Suprendo wrote:
>
>> Yes you can, with terminal services, built into W2K and works right out
>> of the box. Get a clue folks, before spreading misinformation.
>
>Terminal services are built into W2K? I thought you had to buy an extra
>product to get that to work.
Nope, they're built in to W2K server.
>That's very interesting! I'll go looking for
>that on my Win2k machines at work. Is that on Win2K Professional or the
>other versions?
Obviously you need W2K server. They are installed by default. Look in
the control panel. It even provides the client installation executables
for the client machines for you.
--
ROAR UP MY TWAT!!!
------------------------------
From: Charles M <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: NT/2000 true multiuser?
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 17:19:13 -0600
On Sun, 12 Nov 2000 13:00:22 -0600, "Erik Funkenbusch"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>"Charles M" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>news:8ulau7$4n4$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>> >> Claims that any Microsoft product is multi-user are pure fictions
>> >> invented by M$'s marketing department.
>> >
>> >That would be like your statement here. It should be quite easy to prove
>> >your statement. What multiuser features are missing?
>> >
>> I'm not aware of any way to log on and then log on as another user without
>logging off.
>> Yes, there are some limited abilites to execute a single command as
>another user,
>> but is there any way to actually, on a single machine with no network
>connections,
>> log in twice simultaneously?
>
>Telnet, Windows 2000 Terminal Services, FTP, Remote Console (done locally)
>and several others.
>
>They can all be done locally on the same machine without a network
>connection using only local loopback.
>
>
I did try telnet (to the local machine) from win2000, but it doesn't
give a logon prompt (that suprised me, but I've never tried a local
telnet on win2000 before). I checked the telnet services properties
and notice that logon properties defaults to 'Local System' account.
There is a choice for setting a single account username/password, but
that didn't seem to work for me (wouldn't connect at all). How would
you use telnet to perform a su type command? (runas seems to be
limited to a single command, not a complete login shell, so that
doesn't seem to be what I'm after here).
CMM
------------------------------
From: Paul Seelig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.x,comp.os.linux.misc,comp.unix.solaris
Subject: Re: True GTK+ will eliminate Qt in next few years?
Date: 13 Nov 2000 00:09:55 +0100
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (James Hutchins) writes:
> Remember how Motif became the darling and crowded out all of its
> competitors within very few years? Is that what will happen with GTK+ and
> Qt?
>
Well, GTK+ and Qt have definitely crowded out Motif, at least in terms
of popularity in the free software world.
> I was about to switch from Motif to Qt, but have gotten advice from
> several sources suggesting Qt failed to get adopted as the darling of the
> unix community and GTK+ has succeeded, so Qt will not be around, or will
> be a hanger-on.
>
Your advisor seem to be pretty ignorant. GTK+ doesn't and can't
replace Qt because the latter is a pure C++ toolkit while the former
is pure C. None of both can replace either. Qt definitely has become
the darling of free software C++ developer community. GTK+ likewise
for C programmers of the same breed.
> Seems like when a tool doesn't "win", all kinds of things happen, like
> ancilliary tools don't get developed for it, it isn't kept up with new
> developments, good books about it (and about using various tools in
> conjunction with it, like databases, graphics libraries, etc.) don't
> appear, etc.
>
Last time i looked Qt based development was popular and flourishing
like crazy. Since Qt has become GPL'ed it has won being the preferred
C++ toolkit. GTK+ has won too being the preferred C toolkit.
But above all, users as well as programmers have won, because the
silly flamewars regarding Qt/GTK+ have become obsolete with Qt's
GPL'ization. It's not the toolkit, man, it's the *apps*!
And both Qt-based KDE1.x/2.x and GTK+-based GNOME seem to be quite
popular and healthsome among users/programmers. I guess this looks
luckily more like a double win-win situation for *both* toolkits.
Cheers, P. *8^)
--
------------ Paul Seelig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> -------------
African Music Archive - Institute for Ethnology and Africa Studies
Johannes Gutenberg-University - Forum 6 - 55099 Mainz/Germany
------------------- http://ntama.uni-mainz.de --------------------
------------------------------
From: "Les Mikesell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: A Microsoft exodus!
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 23:22:57 GMT
"Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> > >
> > > ILOVEU & Melissa didn't mail any of your files to anyone.
> > > Check symnatec.com for further information.
> >
> > There was a variant of ILOVEU that came around a few weeks
> > later that copied all the graphics files it could find (everyone's
> > browser cache, etc.) over to a different drive and mailed some
> > stuff off somewhere. I'm not sure if anyone tracked down exactly
> > what all it did. It filled our server disks and we had to shut some
> > of them down until we got the latest virus scanners and cleaned
> > everything. Our office is hardly computer-illiterate - this is just
> > the reality of having a product like outlook around.
>
> Windows illeterate, I would imagine.
No, we develop a windows product and nearly everyone has had
some training. You can't make the 'ignorant user' argument here.
They are users with better things to do than memorize icons for
things that we do not use, though. I didn't spread it myself
because I don't use outlook at work, so leave my windows
experience out of it. The office in general is way above
average in what you could expect the users to know.
Les Mikesell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: "Bruce Schuck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: The Sixth Sense
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 15:26:24 -0800
"Les Mikesell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:kOEP5.19629$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> "Bruce Schuck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:MmDP5.125809$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >
> > > What if you don't run windows on your desktop/laptop or whatever
machine
> > > is in front of you when you need to remotely administer something?
> >
> > Then you are missing out on a tremendously productive OS. But you
already
> > knew that.
>
> Cute...
>
> >
> > > The only reasonable tool
> > > I've found to deal with remote windows is VNC installed as a service
> > > because you can run the java client in any browser if you don't happen
> > > to have the client loaded wherever you are.
> >
> > WTS has a browser-based ActiveX control client.
>
> I take it that is the Microsoft's pretense of portability. Just
> as warped as usual.
Sounds pretty portable to me. Any machine with IE on it can be used to
administer a Win2K server.
And when the agreement with Citirix runs out, there will be RDP clients for
all OS.
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