Linux-Advocacy Digest #298, Volume #30 Sat, 18 Nov 00 19:13:06 EST
Contents:
Re: It's even worse than I thought. (kiwiunixman)
Re: I have had it up to *here* with Linux ("Keldon Warlord")
Re: Linux (JoeX1029)
Re: A Microsoft exodus! (Donovan Rebbechi)
Re: NT/2000 true multiuser? (Paul Colquhoun)
Re: NT/2000 true multiuser? ("Evan DiBiase")
Re: It's even worse than I thought. (Charlie Ebert)
Re: wahoo! I'm running now (rich)
Re: It's even worse than I thought. (Charlie Ebert)
Re: I thought Linux was always available free of charge? (Charlie Ebert)
Re: I have had it up to *here* with Linux (D.J.)
Re: I thought Linux was always available free of charge? ("Nigel Feltham")
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: kiwiunixman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: It's even worse than I thought.
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 11:59:37 +1300
What I donot understand is that Polytechnics and Universities offer 18
week starter courses either full time or part time, yet, there are
people who insist that they should not need to learn a bloody thing to
use something. Come on guys, wake up, life is about learning, not
vegetating and complaining. Computers are like coffee machines, both
can burn lusers if ya don't read the instructions.
kiwiunixman
Charlie Ebert wrote:
> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>> The Linux community is so out of touch with reality as far as the home
>> user /desktop Jane is concerned it is comical.
>
>
> I think your talking about marketing more than functionality.
> My 13 year old daughter can install Mandrake sucessfully and use
> it.
>
> But then again, most people have trouble running Windows and
> installing Windows just like they seem to have trouble running
> and installing Linux.
>
> These are the people who will become net appliance operators,
> if they can.
>
>> I just got back from a trip to CompUSA this morning and I took a good
>> look around to see what type of people are buying computers, software
>> and hardware. This is the Saturday crowd here in NYC, not the
>> businessman who is on a trip and forgot his ethernet card at home.
>> These are the home users. So what did I see?
>>
>> 1. A man trying to buy a Network card for his laptop and kept coming
>> back to the counter with Modem boxes asking if they would work. When
>> asked what kind of network he had to connect to (Ethernet/Token Ring)
>> he didn't know.
>>
>
> Yip.
>
>
>> 2. A guy returning a PCI sound card because it didn't fit in his
>> laptop. Duhhhh.....
>>
>
> Umm humm.
>
>
>> 3. A person paying $198.00 for a stick of 128mb PCI-100 memory. About
>> double the going rate.
>>
>
> Maybe I need to get more memory also. You think $100 maybe.
>
>
>> 4. A lady with a DTK 286 motherboard still half connected to the power
>> supply, looking to get it repaired. You had to see this one to believe
>> it. It looked like she pried it out with a crowbar. This is one lady I
>> would NOT want to get mad at me.
>>
>
> HA!
>
>> 5. A lady and her son buying one of those fantasy games (didn't catch
>> the name but looked like Quake or Diablo, but was something else) and
>> then asking the salesman if her machine met the requirements on the
>> side of the box. Not a bad idea except the kid had an iMac and the
>> software was for Windows only.
>>
>
> Yip. Well one more thing about Linux, IT RUNS ON MANY MACHINES.
> True Windows is bound to Alphas and IBM clones.
> True Mac has their own OS.
> True Sparc has their own OS.
>
> True, Linux will run on all of them. And believe it or not,
> it will soon be possible to run the same quake game on all of them
> via alsa.
>
>> 6. A man who couldn't figure out why his machine was running slow
>> compared to his son's and when the salesman asked him how much memory
>> he had, the guy said he had just bought 30 gig last week.
>>
>
> Yeah.
>
>> So this is what you expect to market Linux to? You have to be kidding.
>> These folks ARE the home market, like it or not. The only hope Linux
>> has is pre-loads and the hope that each one of them has some geek
>> friend to help them when they want to upgrade the system.
>>
>
> No. These people can't even run Windows.
> These people are going to become a part of the net appliance
> generation. Embedded Linux is great in making net appliances
> which you can use to surf the internet, do your checking, work
> a spreadsheet, prepare a letter, maybe do some database work...
>
> The concept is there will be no upgrade/install for the net
> appliance user. He/She will be upgraded over the internet
> via his/her cable modem.
>
> And consequently, places like Comp USA will begin to fall off
> the map as fewer people will use them. It was Windows which
> really created Comp USA in the first place. Windows created
> all that havoc you see there and when Windows is finally gone
> the Havoc will end.
>
> You'll buy into a net appliance from some company for a monthly
> service fee of say $20 a month and they will give you a
> $200 embedded net appliance which is upgradeable via it's back
> end on the internet via SSH. And the day's of buying $2,000
> PC's and then paying another $2,000 for software will come
> to an end.
>
>> In closing, I did see one older gentleman holding a Linux box and
>> talking to a salesman. When I wandered over, I heard him asking the
>> salesperson if Linux would run Windows programs. The salesman said no.
>> I thought about mentioning Wine, which was even listed as included on
>> the box cover, but after seeing what I had already seen in this store,
>> I kept quiet.
>> He put it back.
>>
>> claire
>
>
> You have an excellent point. And I've given you the answer.
> People will attempt to CLAMMER to WINDOWS as long as they can
> still afford to do so. We've seen Windows NT at $189 full install
> go to $350 full install for Windows 2000. The next release of
> Windows will go past the $500 mark.
>
> While it's absolutely TRUE that systems administrators aren't on
> every street corner, it's also TRUE that Windows doesn't provide
> complete functionality to the masses and Linux may not in CD form
> either, the embedded market it has a destinct advantage
> over it's Windows/PC bound counterpart. It's cheaper, it's
> easier to run, and eventually will provide the same services
> given there's demand for the product.
>
> WEB TV was Microsofts attempt at creating the same environment.
> But that wasn't an embedded product and you couldn't upgrade
> it over the internet either. It was a box set up for one
> purpose and had a limited life by design.
>
> However, if you know anything about Windows and you feel
> comfortable installing Windows on your computer then you
> will have no trouble installing Mandrake 7.2 or Suse 7.0
> or Redhat 7.0 or Yellow Dog or Linux PPC on your mac.
>
> It's not that difficult for somebody with a little experience.
>
> Will there always be affordable PC's. Sure there will.
> Will there always be affordable Windows? History has
> already taught us that there won't be.
>
> If the courts don't break up Microsoft then Microsoft will
> break up Microsoft.
>
> That brings up another point even Clair Lynn here seems to miss.
>
> There's never been a company created yet which hasn't gone out
> of business. Microsoft is a company.
>
> This brings up the basic issue of survivability.
>
> Linux is more like the masons than it's like AT&T.
> People work on Linux because they want to.
>
> What will Kill Linux will be it's replacement in 20 years.
> Who knows what that will be. Perhaps it will be inspired
> by some new form of hardware architecture. But Linux can
> only die if people quit working on it.
>
> Microsoft is a company and it runs on money. When the money
> stops the company ends and so does Windows.
>
> Further, when Microsoft stops, there will never be another.
> No company is crazy enought to attempt to spend a few billion
> in a start-up to take on Linux once it's gained control.
>
> Take a look at BEOS or NEXT or even IBM's OS/2.
> These are examples of companies which tried a startup against
> Microsoft. If their not dead there on the way there.
>
> Microsoft against Linux will be much the same battle.
> Microsoft is a human which bleeds.
> Linux is more like a statue made from stone, it doesn't bleed.
>
> Microsoft needs air to breath, water to drink and food to eat.
>
> Linux doesn't need anything but love. It doesn't rely on mortal
> conventions for survival such as money.
>
> And we all know gods need love to live.
> And Linux is a mason like religion in that respect.
>
> Microsoft is extremely popular right now and is in power right now,
> this won't always be the case. With Linux and the GPL around,
> Microsoft is facing a disease it won't recover from.
>
> If RedHat has a bad year at the salestable there is talk about it,
> perhaps RedHat isn't doing well, but Linux doesn't get hurt.
> Linux isn't made at RedHat.
>
> Another way to look at this would be the Allied Armies against
> the Axis powers concept. Cut away Japan and Italy for a moment
> and put Microsoft in Germany's place.
>
> Linux is very much like all those countries bonded together in a
> joint cause to defeat Germany. You might do an excellent job
> with your panzers slottering the armies of 3-5 countries but the
> others will kill you in return.
>
> If we were to size up the actual allied forced against the many
> forced which make Linux a reality you would be talking about
> a force consisting of nearly 1000 countries.
>
> That's how offset it really is.
>
> Microsoft doesn't have NASA writing code for it for FREE.
> Microsoft doesn't have all the colleges of the world writing
> code for it for FREE.
> Microsoft doesn't have government agencies from many different
> governments writing code for it for FREE!
> Microsoft doesn't have several corporations writing code for
> it for FREE!
>
> All these institutions are writing the code and getting the
> most benefits from it in return.
>
> The average joe-blow computer user isn't getting as much use
> from this. The Joe-Blow market is truely Microsofts.
>
> I don't really see Microsoft being a strategic conquering hero
> of anybody. I see Microsoft as a marketing bully who's used
> every rotten trick in the book in their bid to corner every
> market in the PC industry. They are mainly a marketing machine.
>
> And it's going to be up to the likes of Mandrake, RedHat, Suse and
> even Debian to bring PC bound Joe-Blow some grounding.
> And the embedded market is going to have to play a part in this
> also for those who want something less expensive.
>
> I run Debian and there are times when I wish I had a web appliance
> in another room. Something like a thin client I could use for
> yet another terminal in another room.
>
> Charlie
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
------------------------------
From: "Keldon Warlord" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.linux.sux,alt.linux,alt.os.linux,alt.os.linux.mandrake
Subject: Re: I have had it up to *here* with Linux
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 16:00:47 -0800
"Uncle Fester" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> > Now if it only had some decent multimedia programs to run like
> > SoundForge or Cooledit or Cubase or Cakewalk or DVD or some Direct-X
> > plugins then we would be in business.
>
>
> Linux would be worth it just to finally break free of DirectX!
> You're right though, we're missing a lot of programs in LinuxLand.
> Let's see... Happy99, Melissa, Navidad...
>
are all Linux users this dense or just you? he said DVD and other multimedia
programs....or is it insane jealousy that the MPAA won't give away those DVD
source codes for FREE like the other dozen brainwashed companies that have?
> --
>
> Chuck Kandler
>
> Never underestimate the power of
> Stupid People in large groups.
>
> Registered Linux User #180746
> http://counter.li.org
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (JoeX1029)
Date: 18 Nov 2000 23:10:10 GMT
Subject: Re: Linux
>JoeX1029 wrote:
>>
>> i tend to agree. GNU/Linux was not and is not for the desktop.
>
> It is ready for the desktop. It sits on mine and runs everyday.
>It does everything I need an OS to do with a plus being added
>stability and the avoidance of virus's and the like that plague
>the OTHER OS.
>
>--
>Jim Broughton
>(The Amiga OS! Now there was an OS)
>If Sense were common everyone would have it!
>Following Air and Water the third most abundant
>thing on the planet is Human Stupidity.
>
Yes, i know it runs on your desktop. It runs on my desktop and server too.
But i've seen lots of genuine probs from WIndows users. Face it, it aint quite
ready.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donovan Rebbechi)
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: A Microsoft exodus!
Date: 18 Nov 2000 23:32:04 GMT
On Sat, 18 Nov 2000 20:19:57 GMT, Chad Myers wrote:
>
>"Jim Richardson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>The commands are obvious, and non-cryptic.
No they're not. For example, it's not obvious whether one should use
"delete", "erase", or "remove" or some abbreviation to remove a file.
>The same could not be said for most unix commands.
I wouldn't say they're "cryptic".
cp (copy), rm (remove), ls (list), ...
most of them are sensible abbreviations.
>Shining example: man Why not "help"? Or even "manual"?
>
>Yes, I know a user could create an alias, but then, how would they
>know that alias existed if they couldn't even find the help system?
This is a red herring. The people who use the commands on UNIX in the first
place are not so dumb that they can't remember a few simple commands. The
hardest part about becoming proficient with the command line is using
shell script idioms ( such as pipes, redirection and command substitution ).
The commands themselves are a snap.
Of course, the UNIX shells also have the advantage that they are half usable
(they have tab completion for filenames and commands for example) and history.
Dos on the other hand is so spartan that it's barely usable (which is why
the vast majority of windows users stay away from it whenever possible)
--
Donovan Rebbechi * http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/ *
elflord at panix dot com
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Paul Colquhoun)
Subject: Re: NT/2000 true multiuser?
Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 23:46:40 GMT
On Sat, 18 Nov 2000 19:23:59 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
|Hey Hon' look at this.
|
|No programming required.
|
|claire
Who says she is in the same room, or even the same building?
|On Fri, 17 Nov 2000 21:50:18 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Jim
|Richardson) wrote:
|
|
|>Well, for one, if I want to show my wife a pic I have a simple bash script that
|>sets the DISPLAY variable to her machine, shows the pic, and when it closes,
|>resets the DISPLAY to the original setting. I find it useful, how can I do this
|>under windows?
|
--
Reverend Paul Colquhoun, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Universal Life Church http://andor.dropbear.id.au/~paulcol
-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-
xenaphobia: The fear of being beaten to a pulp by
a leather-clad, New Zealand woman.
------------------------------
From: "Evan DiBiase" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: NT/2000 true multiuser?
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 18:42:00 +0500
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "The Great Suprendo"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> A certain Evan DiBiase, of comp.os.linux.advocacy "fame", writes :
>>If I blow your legs off, you're still crippled, even if you were rarely,
>>if ever, going to use those legs again.
>
> Not valid at all since that "if" is highly unlikely. All able bodied
> humans take the use of their legs for granted. Losing legs would
> undeniably be a cripple.
OK. Let's take a look at the definition of "cripple":
Cripple Crip"ple, v. t. imp. & p. p. Crippled (-p'ld); p.
pr. & vb. n. Crippling (-pl?ng).
1. To deprive of the use of a limb, particularly of a leg or
foot; to lame.
2. To deprive of strength, activity, or capability for
service or use; to disable; to deprive of resources; as,
to be financially crippled
You will notice that, in the example we're talking about, disabling file
sharing connections for over 10 users by Windows 2000 Professional is
certainly an example of deprivation of capability. Windows 2000
Professional _could_ serve to more than 10 users at a time, but Microsoft
has deprived it of that capability, hence Windows 2000 Professional has
been crippled by Microsoft.
-Evan
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------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Charlie Ebert)
Subject: Re: It's even worse than I thought.
Reply-To: Charlie Ebert:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 23:46:11 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>No I'm saying that you Penguinista's live in a fantasy land where you
>think everyone else has nothing better to do but read How-To's in
>order to try and make Linux functional. Every single person I know who
>has tried Linux, most made serious attempts, has dumped it and
>returned to Windows.
Well Claire-Lynn, the problem we are currently facing is Windows and
it's effect on people. It makes everybody think they can safely and
effectively administer and run a PC. This isn't true either as
you demonstrated with your COMP usa message. People who run Windows
have problems. And I know people who've run Linux who've left to
go back to Windows also.
So what's new.
It's the cost of the system I keep talking about and you keep avoiding.
I don't think anybody is going to have a problem with the Windows of
the future as it will be over $500 a copy then jump to $800 a copy
after that. They just won't be able to afford it.
>They simply got sick and tired of spending hours searching for answers
>to what would be trival to do under Windows. And even if they found a
>solution, more often than not, it was half assed and required even
>more reading to implement.
>
Honest to god, I've spent hours attempting to solve Windows problems
and so have a great many. I don't see the difference here.
>Some people design operating systems. The rest of the world prefers to
>run applications and Linux is dismal in that area.
>
>claire
>
I don't think so. My Debian plays midi, I can web browse, I can
write business documents, I have several spreadsheets I use every day,
I have X, I read and post to newsgroups, I use my built in web server,
I have a built in sql database I use also, I can also compile software
I write with my built in compiler. And I have just $1,200 tied up in
my hardware and $0 in my software.
Windows is too expensive for me the developer right now.
And it's rapidly becomming too expensive for the end user.
And NO, Windows isn't a CUREALL for END USERS frustrations either!
COMP USA as you pointed out is just chalked full of people having
trouble with Windows and attempting to get something done about it.
And YES, you can spend hours and days screwing with Windows trying
to get it running again. And it's god damn expensive to play too.
And what really pisses me off about Windows is the fact you've payed
good money to play and when you get your system set up the way YOU
want it, then it blue screens and trashes out the drive anyway and
just pisses you off even further.
Charlie
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (rich)
Subject: Re: wahoo! I'm running now
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 23:48:12 -0000
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Also schrieb Bartek Kostrzewa:
>rich wrote:
>>
>> So I am slowly putting my RH 7.0 machine back together again -- after a
>> very nasty experience with a bad hard disk and a flakey video card.
>
>RH 7.0 sucks big time in my opinion. Especially for developpers because
>you have to make extra binaries for it. (because of that damn compiler)
What about Slack 7.1? I bought both from Cheapbytes. The next box is
going to be a Slackware box, just for grins and giggles. I want to
compare the two.
>Hmm... my PCI nic's always get their adresses automatically, with PCI
>cards there are no such problems.
I tried a Linksys card, it wouldn't even see it.
>> Nice things: I put the CD ROM in and it automounted. How cool is that?
>
>Everywhere or only in GNOME? Because in gnome this was a standard
>fuction long ago already.
I've never noticed it. It was only in Gnome. I just happened to put
the CD in and I noticed the /mnt/cdrom directory listing. A flakey
video card contributed to my not running X for more than basic
troubleshooting, at least until a few nights ago.
>> I'm also dancing in the virtual aisle because I finally, finally got
>> Samba installed and configured.
>
>Yeah, Samba's a bitch of a configurable application, pro is that you can
>change everything, contra is that it's so terribly complicated, but it's
>great and painless once you got it running (just like all of Linux,
>understand it and stop worrying, I didn't touch a single config file for
>months, my Rh 6.2 box just runs and runs and keeps running [it's
>modified though, 2.4-test10 kernel, XF 4.0.1, Helix GNOME last version
>etc.. etc.. etc..)
I pretty much edited my smb.conf to include my workgroup, and added a
world-readable share called /usr/publick and left the home shares as
they are. Edited the right RC file with tksysv (what a braindead
program that is -- a "hack" is right!) and away we went.
>> And after probably 2 months of
>> infrequent work (say, 1 or two hours a week,) and about 10 hours of
>> concentrated effort, I'm beginning now to really understand this little
>> box.
>
>That's a kewl feeling isn't it, that's the moment where you think :
>"Damn, it was harder than Windows, but I don't worry about anything
>anymore, I can do anything I want, I can go anywhere I want today."
Well, I'm not quite there yet, but I'm definitely on the right track.
The learning curve is becoming less a chore and more fun.
--
Sysadmin training course, lesson #1: rm -rf / . Recover.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Charlie Ebert)
Subject: Re: It's even worse than I thought.
Reply-To: Charlie Ebert:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 23:49:28 GMT
In article <8v6ur8$r1o$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, David Dorward wrote:
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>> No I'm saying that you Penguinista's live in a fantasy land where you
>> think everyone else has nothing better to do but read How-To's in
>> order to try and make Linux functional. Every single person I know who
>> has tried Linux, most made serious attempts, has dumped it and
>> returned to Windows.
>
>Every single person who I know who has tried Linux, is still using it.
This is true.
I have had under 10 people try to install Linux in the last 8 years
who have said they would never be back. Out of those 10, I would
GUESS that probably 5 are still on Windows.
It's mainly in the install where they get discouraged. But if they
get the system up and running and have used it for a couple of weeks
they won't get rid of it. And if they have been using their computers
alternating between Linux and Windows for 6 months or more, generally
they come to the conclusion that Windows is a waste of drive space
and they delete the Windows partition and making it EXT2.
That's what I did in the spring of 1998. And I've never needed Windows
for anything from that point forward.
Charlie
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Charlie Ebert)
Subject: Re: I thought Linux was always available free of charge?
Reply-To: Charlie Ebert:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 23:53:11 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>Or the grossly overpriced distributions in the superstores like
>CompUSA.
>
>There is one that is in this big fat box (Professional Linux?)that
>includes all kinds of archive CD's, various distributions and
>essentially a collection of junk that you can get for free on the net.
>
>It sells for $149.00.
>
>What a gross rip off.
>
>claire
>
Here's one where I will AGREE with Claire.
The price of Suse, Mandrake, RedHat Deluxe, and others have
risen to $80 from $45-55 range.
I have one word which covers this subject.
DEBIAN.
Enough said.
Charlie
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (D.J.)
Crossposted-To: alt.linux.sux,alt.linux,alt.os.linux,alt.os.linux.mandrake
Subject: Re: I have had it up to *here* with Linux
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 23:50:15 GMT
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
"Keldon Warlord" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
[]are all Linux users this dense or just you? he said DVD and other multimedia
[]programs....or is it insane jealousy that the MPAA won't give away those DVD
[]source codes for FREE like the other dozen brainwashed companies that have?
You don't need DirectX to run DVD or other multimedia. Thats the
point you are missing.
JimP.
--
djim55 at tyhe datasync dot com. Disclaimer: Standard.
My Web pages Updated: November 17, 2000:
http://www.crosswinds.net/~djim51/updated.html
Registered Linux user#185746
------------------------------
From: "Nigel Feltham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: I thought Linux was always available free of charge?
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 00:01:59 -0000
>Here's one where I will AGREE with Claire.
>
>The price of Suse, Mandrake, RedHat Deluxe, and others have
>risen to $80 from $45-55 range.
>
These packages contain a lot more than just the operating system.
They contain multiple CD's full of applications, games and utilities.
Compare any of these linux packages with the equivalent Microsoft
product - at least twice the price and you only get the operating system
with virtually nothing to run on it (or at least nothing useful).
You also have the choice - if these linux packages are too expensive
for you then you can buy a cheaper package, download an install ISO
CD image or install files from the internet or buy one of the magazines
who regularly give away linux distributions on their cover-mount CD's.
Which is the gross ripoff here?
------------------------------
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