Linux-Advocacy Digest #465, Volume #30 Mon, 27 Nov 00 07:13:03 EST
Contents:
Re: Uptime -- where is NT? (Giuliano Colla)
Re: C++ -- Our Industry... (Jacques Guy)
Re: Whistler review. (Jacques Guy)
Re: Things I have noticed................ (Jacques Guy)
Re: Whistler review. ("Ayende Rahien")
Re: Whistler review. ("Ayende Rahien")
Re: Windoze 2000 - just as shitty as ever ("Ayende Rahien")
Re: Whistler review. ("Patrick Raymond Hancox")
Re: C++ -- Our Industry... ("Aaron R. Kulkis")
Re: C++ -- Our Industry... ("Aaron R. Kulkis")
Re: Things I have noticed................ ("Aaron R. Kulkis")
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Giuliano Colla <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.os2.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: Uptime -- where is NT?
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 11:10:09 GMT
Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
>
> > Said Giuliano Colla in alt.destroy.microsoft on Sat, 25 Nov 2000
> > >Now look what NT does. It exposes a 32 bit value, which is incremented
> > >in units of one hundredth of a second, as per specs, but when it reaches
> > >a value 10 times smaller than the all 1's value (i.e. after 49.7 days,
> > >instead 497) it goes back to zero. To be exact, when it reaches the
> > >binary value 11001100110011001100110011001 it goes back to zero. It's
> > >not a binary counter rolling over to zero!
>
> That's not the case. NT's tick counter is not in 10ms units, it's in 1ms
> units, though it increments it 55ms at a time (the system tick minimum
> resolution)
>
> It does roll over to 0 after filling up with all 1's.
>
> Here's a little exercise. Calculate the largest number of days a 32 bit
> value can hold if it holds 1ms units. The answer, 49.7 or so days.
Here's a little exercise for you.
You have an internal tick counter made the stupid way MS has
done. (Don't tell me that a 1 ms resolution with 55 ms
uncertainty is smart because I won't buy it, but that's
another matter)
Now you have decided to provide a function whose specs
require to expose, as a continuity indicator, a 32 bit
counter which increments in units of 10 ms. Remember that
you may not provide it. IBM's AIX doesn't, just to make an
example. It's just a function you may have or not. But
you've decided to have it.
1) What's the largest value this counter will hold? Is it
497 or so days or not?
2) How would you implement it, in such a way as not to be
called an incompetent amateur?
Would you derive it from your 32 bit value which has a 1 ms
resolution (with 55 ms uncertainty), so that it will break
continuity, each 49.7 days, or think of something else?
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 11:14:16 +0000
From: Jacques Guy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: C++ -- Our Industry...
kiwiunixman wrote:
> Mind you if ya live in America (the country with the
> cheapest petrol)
No! Honest, petrol is waaaaay cheaper in Saudi Arabia,
and way cheaper in Indonesia (count the a's).
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 11:26:00 +0000
From: Jacques Guy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Whistler review.
Matthew Soltysiak wrote:
> Ok, so go away... why did you respond to this? Stupid linvocates.. whistler will
> continue windows domination over the world.
Sieg heil! Or, in Italian: Eia, eia, eia, alalà! But, of course,
to understand that, you must either have lived under Mussolini,
or watched Pasolini's stunning adaptation of Sade's "120 days
of Sodom".
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 11:35:19 +0000
From: Jacques Guy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Things I have noticed................
kiwiunixman wrote:
> 3. So-called ex-linux users using the excuse, "it is too hard" as an excuse
> for not continuing to use Linux. Down the road at my local book store there
> were hundreds of books, from linux for beginners up to programming linux on
> servers
That just goes to prove that Linux sux. If it didn't you wouldn't have
hundreds of books on the shelves: they'd all have been bought out!
Frogguy, standing in for Lynn, as every gentlemanly frog should
for a lady. (***smoooooch*** Claire darling!)
------------------------------
From: "Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Whistler review.
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 13:27:35 +0200
"Bennetts family" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:gPlU5.54$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> "Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:8vsa9p$5e8t6$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > I've finally gotten whistler (pro, 2296, beta 1), and I'm *liking* it.
> > For those of you who doesn't know what this is, whistler is an the new
OS
> > (the one that will inherit both win2k & win ME) from Microsoft, destined
> to
> > finally eliminated the 9x line.
>
> About bloody time.
Yeah.
> > Here is my biased review.
> > I'm going to limit myself to comments about the new GUI and features of
> the
> > OS, as this a Beta1, it's not yet appropriate to talk about performace
and
> > stability yet.
>
> Fair enough.
Thanks for the understanding, some people seem to be unable to understand
that you can't test the system for anything more than look & feel in a short
time.
> > Starting with the install, you stick the cd in the drive, set the BIOS
to
> > boot from the CD, and you are done.
> > Strangely enough, I have the system up and running without returning to
> the
> > BIOS to change the settings, and it's still working.
>
> So's mine, running 98SE and Mandrake 7.0, funnily enough.
Any idea why?
> > The installation itself is pretty similar to Windows 2000, blue screen
in
> > text mode, and afterward the familiar wizard style.
> > The main difference is that it's now uses the "simpler start menu" as a
> > background.
> > Installation took little longer than an hour, most of the time to format
a
> > NTFS HD.
> > After the text mode, which require some little knowledge in the
computer's
> > HD, the installer required very little input from the user, and did all
> the
> > configuration on its on.
> > The computer is win2k HCLed, btw.
>
> Does it tell you what it is doing? Does it give you the option during the
> install to put on 3rd party drivers for hardware from CD so you don't have
> to endure 304 reboots post install? Naahh, didn't think so...
During the install? Of course it tells me what it's doing.
I especially liked the way the MS ads during setup repeated themselves.
During install, I don't *think* you can install 3rd party drivers, but I'm
not sure.
But why would I've to endure 304 reboots anyway?
Install all drivers, reboot, it works.
> > The new startup screen is cool, but I like the win2k one better, the
win2k
> > one provide some (limited, but real) information on how much progress
the
> OS
> > had in loading itself.
> > Whistler's startup screen provide no such information, in that, it's
very
> > much like the win9x startup screens.
>
> Try linux, it tells you every damn thing, which makes debugging easy, and
> gives you real feedback on what parts of the startup are taking most time,
> and what daemons are loading.
So can windows.
> > Accounts are created without passwords by default, another thing I don't
> > like.
> > And when you login, all the accounts on the computer are presented to
you,
> > which is another mistake.
>
> ROTFL!!! Ahh yes, at this stage, it is safe to say whistler != secure.
Just
> what we need for servers.
Just a nitpick, but the version I'm runnning is a workstation, not server.
> > Strangely enough, by default, the desktop don't display the "My
Computer"
> > and "My Documents" icon folders.
> > With those icons being probably the most important in handling windows,
> I'm
> > quite sure it's a bug.
>
> I believe it's a feature, to hide the stuff from lusers so they don't hurt
> themselves.
If so, what happened to the My Documents icon? It's just as important to the
clueless.
More so, actually.
> > Another bug I found is in the control panel>mouse>pointer options, where
> the
> > "Show location" option doesn't warp, so the "y." (at least I assume that
> it
> > what it's supposed to be) cannot be seen.
>
> Not warping is a good thing. Not wrapping, OTOH... ;-)
>
> > The entire GUI is cool, for that matter.
> > It feel like a game or a flash applet.
>
> Just what we all need when we are trying to get *work* done.
Yeah, I know. But you can turn it off.
> > The login screen, for example, is in pastel colors, and you've a list of
> > users, with pictures near each name, and when your mouse is over a
> username,
> > all the other usernames fade out.
> > If you click a username, and it has no password, it moved to the center
of
> > the upper half of the screen, and it would tell you what it's doing (3 -
4
> > seconds process) while it loads your settings.
> > If it has a password, it opens (open like a drawer, really cool) a box
> that
> > ask you to enter the password.
>
> Animations...ouch...slow...I just want to logon, dagnammit, not watch a
damn
> Flash animation.
Then turn the animation off.
> > On NT & 2000, you needed a *long* password to feel the password box, in
> > whistler, it takes very few characters for the password box to be full
on
> > the black circles, so you've no indication whatever you are still
typing.
> > It makes sense, I assume, as it obscure password length to onlookers,
and
> > it's no worse than unix no showing what you type at all.
>
> Not showing anything ala Unix etc is a security measure, noone looking
over
> your shoulder or somehow getting onto a VT can suss the length of it. And
> anyway, if you make a mistake, whatever sort of blobs are there, you need
to
> retype it from scratch anyway.
I know, but it prevent people from getting any sort of feedback about
whatever their typing is being sent to the computer.
Which is the whole reason you've password fields in the first place.
> > I like the "simpler start menu", for now, at least.
> > It would take some getting used to, I suppose. But I suspect it can also
> > drive a person crazy, very easily. One thing that I already find
annoying
> in
> > this is that you can't logoff without using the mouse.
>
> Doesn't Win+L work any more?
Yep, it does. Just checked.
I never thought of trying it
Thanks.
> > User A return, he log on, all his applications are intact, for those of
> you
> > who are familiar with NT/2000, it's similar to computer lock.
>
> It's in *nix, too.
In GUI? I know you can do this in CLI, but I don't think that I've ever seen
it in GUI.
> > You can also log off completely, thus releasing the resources that you
> took.
>
> I'd damn well hope so.
>
> snip
> > Whistler currently comes with IE & OE 5.6, which doesn't seem to offer
any
> > big improvement over IE 5.5, at least on the surface.
>
> Look for IE6 to be in it. With a better print preview as it's highlight.
Yeah, there isn't much that they can change, can they?
At least on the outside, which was what I was commenting about.
They could revert to IE 5 on Mac standards, and put in some more standards
support.
> snip
> > Whistler *is* pretty.
>
> Good to see focus on the things that *matter* </tic>.
For the user, it is what matter. And what I'm using right now is not a
server, it's a workstation.
> snip
> > However, in its current state, I have to say that Whistler is pretty
> awesome
> > UI-wise. I'll have to study it much more to find out if it can serve as
> more
> > than a toy.
>
> That's the test, isn't it.
Yeah, that and how many application would work on it.
> > Right now, I would rather use the beta than any win9x, including
win98se.
> > It's based on NT kernel, which mean it *can't* be as bad as the 9x line.
> > At the very least, it's going to be a cool workstation.
>
> Requiring a P4 with all the animations. Now that's a hot processor.
No, it doesn't.
And you can easily turn animations off.
> > For now, I think that there is a good chance that Whistler will be as
good
> > from win2k as win2k was from NT.
>
> Not what you'd call hard.
You think that it isn't hard?
Then you've never used NT & 2000
------------------------------
From: "Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Whistler review.
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 13:42:46 +0200
"Donn Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> [trimmed comp.sys.mac.advocacy]
>
> Ayende Rahien wrote:
> >
> > I've finally gotten whistler (pro, 2296, beta 1), and I'm *liking* it.
> > For those of you who doesn't know what this is, whistler is an the new
OS
> > (the one that will inherit both win2k & win ME) from Microsoft, destined
to
> > finally eliminated the 9x line.
>
> OK, fair enough. It sounds pretty nice, esp. the behavior you've
> described when ctrl+alt+delete is pressed. IMO, UI only matters to end
> users, but I guess that's what Microsoft's aim is: ease of use, etc.
> You forgot to mention how well it runs your existing Win 95/NT 4.0/Win
> 2000 apps. Also, how well does it run Win 3.1 apps? Can you format a
> floppy and do anything else while the floppy is formatting? Just
> kidding.
My Whistler is a workstation version, so it would be optimised to the user.
I didn't mentioned it because I didn't have the time to test it.
My dialer, which is a known trouble maker, is working, I'm now going through
the phase of testing the applicaiton support.
I can format a floppy and work while it's formatting, (although I don't deal
with floppies this often)
> It would be nice if you'd include, as I said, how well it ran your
> existing pre-whistler Windows apps, and the percentage success rate.
> Did your Win 95/8 apps crash a lot? Were they more/less stable than
> when running natively on Win 95/8?
I'll test and report it.
You can also tell Whistler to emulate 95 or NT if the application is not
working well.
I don't see how they can be less stable than 9x, in 9x, any application can
bring down the system.
> There's something else I'd like to find out. I've got FreeBSD on my
> primary HD. I've got a second HD on the slave of the primary IDE
> controller. When I try to install Win 95, it tries to make a partition
> on the end of the first HD (on the master). This is frustrating, as it
> doesn't allow me to choose the second HD as a place to install Win 95.
> How well does Whistler handle a situation like this? Of course, it is a
> rather old version of Win 95, but I'm still curious.
Well, Whistler (and NT), allows you to choose where to put it, and on what
file system.
It's known that windows simply overwrite the MBR without bother to consider
other OS that may be on it (typical MS arrogancy), so it might be wise to
have a way to load into BSD without the MBR, and restore it from there.
For myself, after suffering several painful dual & triple boot incidents,
decided that it's idiotic to do things this way, and from then on I swtich
OS through the bios.
------------------------------
From: "Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze 2000 - just as shitty as ever
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 13:47:40 +0200
"Les Mikesell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:UdlU5.25109$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> "Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:8vsa18$5grsc$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >
> > > This must be from very limited experience. I've had 2 NTFS's become
> > > corrupt to the point where chkdsk would not fix them, and no e2fs's
> > > that e2fsck wouldn't fix if you run it manually. I've never trusted
> > > FAT much, so every time chkdsk mentions cross-linked chains or
> > > the like, I just assume it is hopeless and reformat. DOS is just too
> > > dumb to know or care if the FS is corrupt.
> >
> > What options did you use on chkdsk?
>
> I don't remember, but it would have been the 'fix everything you can'
> choice.
> It is annoying enough that it dumps the recovered files with made-up names
> in the root directory instead of isolating them somewhere, but when it
> mentions cross-linked files you still end up with a mess.
No, I've seen it work on such occasions.
> > What do you lose when you run e2fsck manually?
>
> Just the time it takes to do it. There is some limit to the number of
> things
> that it will fix in automatic mode and a busy machine, especially one with
> a lot of RAM can easily have more unsync'd files than that.
You mean that even if the FS is in flames, e2fck will restore it in manual
mode, without losing any of the data?
------------------------------
Reply-To: "Patrick Raymond Hancox" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Patrick Raymond Hancox" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Whistler review.
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 03:52:07 -0800
"kiwiunixman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> What do you have to prove with that post? Look at Windows 2000 Pro, 650MB,
a
> base installation, compare that to, say, Redhat Linux, which maybe a
little
> bigger in size, but includes valuable third party tools such as tar, gzip,
> and StarOffice.
a single UDMA66 20Gb drive sells for about $180 or so, last i looked. 650Mg
(which, i'm guessing, includes your page file) is not much of a problem.
btw, tar, gzip and StarOffice all work on Win2K (StarOffice suckes as badly
on win2k as it does otherplatforms)
------------------------------
From: "Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: C++ -- Our Industry...
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 07:02:28 -0500
"Joseph T. Adams" wrote:
>
> Salvador Peralta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> << MS Access horror story snipped >>
>
> After cleaning up not one, but *dozens* of similar messes over the
> past two years, I'm reluctant to use MSAccess for even the simple
> recipe collections and 8-track cassette playlists that it was designed
> for.
>
> Porting to MSSQL or a real database usually isn't an option unless one
> is willing to do a full rewrite, because MSAccess (and VB) projects
> usually are utterly lacking in anything resembling a workable design.
> Every MS product is loaded with unique, "productivity-enhancing"
> features that are designed to lock users into forever using the same
> tool. A decent design would either ignore such "features," or build
> some abstraction around them so that the rest of the code could be
> ported to another tool without too much trouble. But I've yet to see
> any such attention to decent design in any MS-centric project, or, for
> that matter, in any of the MS sample code I've seen floating around on
> MSDN or elsewhere. Thus, buggy code with crappy and nonscalable
> performance is very much the norm, and rewrites every one to two years
> are not only accepted but expected.
This is because most people who program in VB are ill-educated
amateurs who have an MS-cert after their name....which only means
that their far-from-well-rounded "education" means that they were
completely unprepared to resist the MS-brainwashing to indulge
in such trivial nonsense. Portability-schmortability... is the
watchword for Microshaft instructors.
>
> Joe
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Engineer
ICQ # 3056642
H: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
you are lazy, stupid people"
I: Loren Petrich's 2-week stubborn refusal to respond to the
challenge to describe even one philosophical difference
between himself and the communists demonstrates that, in fact,
Loren Petrich is a COMMUNIST ***hole
J: Other knee_jerk reactionaries: billh, david casey, redc1c4,
The retarded sisters: Raunchy (rauni) and Anencephielle (Enielle),
also known as old hags who've hit the wall....
A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
B: Jet Silverman plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a
method of sidetracking discussions which are headed in a
direction that she doesn't like.
C: Jet Silverman claims to have killfiled me.
D: Jet Silverman now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
...despite (C) above.
E: Jet is not worthy of the time to compose a response until
her behavior improves.
F: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
G: Knackos...you're a retard.
------------------------------
From: "Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: C++ -- Our Industry...
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 07:07:38 -0500
Jacques Guy wrote:
>
> kiwiunixman wrote:
>
> > Mind you if ya live in America (the country with the
> > cheapest petrol)
>
> No! Honest, petrol is waaaaay cheaper in Saudi Arabia,
> and way cheaper in Indonesia (count the a's).
Very true.
I once paid for a fillup of a humvee (27-gallon tank)...
I paid the guy US $5...he gave me 8 Saudi Rials (about $2.10)...
and I ***KNOW*** i got ripped off ...
(but, it really wasn't worth arguing about 50 cents...we were
just happy that this gas station in the middle of nowhere would
take US dollars so that we could get home!)
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Engineer
ICQ # 3056642
H: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
you are lazy, stupid people"
I: Loren Petrich's 2-week stubborn refusal to respond to the
challenge to describe even one philosophical difference
between himself and the communists demonstrates that, in fact,
Loren Petrich is a COMMUNIST ***hole
J: Other knee_jerk reactionaries: billh, david casey, redc1c4,
The retarded sisters: Raunchy (rauni) and Anencephielle (Enielle),
also known as old hags who've hit the wall....
A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
B: Jet Silverman plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a
method of sidetracking discussions which are headed in a
direction that she doesn't like.
C: Jet Silverman claims to have killfiled me.
D: Jet Silverman now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
...despite (C) above.
E: Jet is not worthy of the time to compose a response until
her behavior improves.
F: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
G: Knackos...you're a retard.
------------------------------
From: "Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Things I have noticed................
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 07:08:34 -0500
Jacques Guy wrote:
>
> kiwiunixman wrote:
>
> > 3. So-called ex-linux users using the excuse, "it is too hard" as an excuse
> > for not continuing to use Linux. Down the road at my local book store there
> > were hundreds of books, from linux for beginners up to programming linux on
> > servers
>
> That just goes to prove that Linux sux. If it didn't you wouldn't have
> hundreds of books on the shelves: they'd all have been bought out!
Actually, what it means is that Linux is so easy to use, people don't
need the books.
>
> Frogguy, standing in for Lynn, as every gentlemanly frog should
> for a lady. (***smoooooch*** Claire darling!)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You are insaaaaaaaaane.
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Engineer
ICQ # 3056642
H: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
you are lazy, stupid people"
I: Loren Petrich's 2-week stubborn refusal to respond to the
challenge to describe even one philosophical difference
between himself and the communists demonstrates that, in fact,
Loren Petrich is a COMMUNIST ***hole
J: Other knee_jerk reactionaries: billh, david casey, redc1c4,
The retarded sisters: Raunchy (rauni) and Anencephielle (Enielle),
also known as old hags who've hit the wall....
A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
B: Jet Silverman plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a
method of sidetracking discussions which are headed in a
direction that she doesn't like.
C: Jet Silverman claims to have killfiled me.
D: Jet Silverman now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
...despite (C) above.
E: Jet is not worthy of the time to compose a response until
her behavior improves.
F: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
G: Knackos...you're a retard.
------------------------------
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