Linux-Advocacy Digest #474, Volume #30 Mon, 27 Nov 00 19:13:08 EST
Contents:
Re: Whistler review. ("kiwiunixman")
Re: Whistler review. (Josiah Fizer)
Re: Things I have noticed................ ("kiwiunixman")
Re: Whistler review. (Curtis)
Re: Whistler review. ("Ayende Rahien")
Re: Whistler review. ("Ayende Rahien")
Re: Whistler review. ("Ayende Rahien")
Re: Whistler review. (Curtis)
Re: Windoze 2000 - just as shitty as ever (Chris Ahlstrom)
Re: Whistler review. ("Bennetts family")
Re: Whistler review. ("Bennetts family")
Re: Whistler review. ("Bennetts family")
Re: The Sixth Sense (Chris Ahlstrom)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "kiwiunixman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Whistler review.
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 22:45:05 GMT
1. First of all, the security rating used to "promote NT" is only for an
unconnect (non-networked box), hence when connected, the security is
instantly questionable.
2. From my previous post:
educated elite (aka UNIX users and people who question Microsoft and other
so-called "market leaders")
The main emphasis is on the "people who question Microsoft and other
so-called "market leaders" ", that includes anyone who questions the
underhanded tactics of Microsoft, hence, could be Mac users, Amiga Users,
even Windows users. Conrad yet ya fact right before releasing shyte into
this newsgroup.
3. I am upgrading to either an Ultra Sparc or O2 as there is co-herancy
between third party vendors and the computer itself, so hence, I could be
viewed as a user who questions the reliability and versatility of the Intel
platform.
kiwiunixman
Conrad Rutherford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:3a2292f3$0$14420$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> "kiwiunixman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > What do you have to prove with that post? Look at Windows 2000 Pro,
650MB,
> a
> > base installation, compare that to, say, Redhat Linux, which maybe a
> little
> > bigger in size, but includes valuable third party tools such as tar,
gzip,
> > and StarOffice.
> >
> > I have nothing against Commercial Software, if fact I am an out right
> > capitalist, however, Microsoft has a reputation for churning out shyte
so
> > that customers (like your self) think because it comes from Microsoft it
> > must be good. I am very soon moving from Linux to either a Sun
> Workstation
> > (Solaris 8) or an SGI O2 Workstation (IRIX 6.5), both have extremely
> stable
> > OS's, something Microsoft needs to learn about. If you get ya rocks off
> > running windows, and talking to your uneducated simpleton friends about
> it's
> > so-called merits, then so be it, but don't expect the educated elite
(aka
> > UNIX users and people who question Microsoft and other so-called "market
> > leaders") to listen your shyte.
> >
> > kiwiunixman
>
> Oh, you are the "elite" and the non-unix types are weak huh? Yes, mein
> furher. Wow, you really do have your nose up in the air, must be from
> treading water standing still so long. So, upgrading from Linux to
Slowaris
> or even IRIX eh? You've obviously discovered Linux' limitations - but to
> pretend that Windows 2000 is crap only tells us that you have no clue what
> you are talking about. Obviously you've never seen it let alone used it.
And
> if you use that crap then you know about spending money and lots lots more
> of it than you would with a nice wintel box. Sad... i mean if running an
OS
> is what you use to get your rocks off, you are obviously too far gone to
> even try to reason with. And your trainspotting imitation of an accent is
> tired...
>
>
------------------------------
From: Josiah Fizer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Whistler review.
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 14:54:15 -0800
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
kiwiunixman wrote:
> 1. First of all, the security rating used to "promote NT" is only for an
> unconnect (non-networked box), hence when connected, the security is
> instantly questionable.
>
> 2. From my previous post:
>
> educated elite (aka UNIX users and people who question Microsoft and other
> so-called "market leaders")
>
> The main emphasis is on the "people who question Microsoft and other
> so-called "market leaders" ", that includes anyone who questions the
> underhanded tactics of Microsoft, hence, could be Mac users, Amiga Users,
> even Windows users. Conrad yet ya fact right before releasing shyte into
> this newsgroup.
>
> 3. I am upgrading to either an Ultra Sparc or O2 as there is co-herancy
> between third party vendors and the computer itself, so hence, I could be
> viewed as a user who questions the reliability and versatility of the Intel
> platform.
>
> kiwiunixman
>
Go with an Indigo 2 R10k Impact system. Should cost less then an O2 and has
better graphics (O2 has no hardware geometry setup).
------------------------------
From: "kiwiunixman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Things I have noticed................
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 22:56:58 GMT
The concept about the "desktop", IMHO, the OS should be a very thin layer of
code in a computer, hence, should not be the main focus and domanant part of
the computer (I think 650MB is pretty dominant in the case of Windows 2000).
Linux is not a hard OS to master, it is simply a different way of doing
something, it's like going from driving a Mini Cooper to a Log Truck,
fundimentally, both work the same way, in practice, a little learning is
needed to drive the truck.
kiwiunixman
James <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:3a22a933$0$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> "kiwiunixman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > Things I have noticed from my own experience and from reply's to this
news
> > group:
> >
> > 1. When wintel users argue a topic and they find that they getting
beaten,
> > they bring out the old GUI argument, the perfect example of this is in
the
> > whistler post, to sum it up, "Fuck the quality, what about the pretty
> > colours", the amount of time Microsoft spends on the GUI, Bill Gates
might
> > as well be a fashion designer, "Bill Gates Summer Fashion Collection",
> could
> > you imagine an interview with Bill Gates (fashion designer), "this new
> > summer collection is a combination of colour and patterns to compliment
> the
> > summer atmosphere, and as normal, we have stuck to the main selling
> > principle, "More colour, less quality" ".
> >
> > This conclusion made from the "whistler" post by Ayende Rahien.
> >
> >
> > 2. From who I know in the Wintel world, Wintel users tend to have the
> worst
> > taste in fashion and music. Two of them could not co-ordinate colours
and
> > patterns if their life depended on it :) God, music, listening to
rubbish
> > such as Five, Backstreet Boys, S-Club and Boy Zone. You are probably
> > saying, "What has fashion and music un-cordination have to do with
OS's",
> > everything! This argument is no better than the GUI argument that gets
> used
> > by wintel users.
> >
> > This conclusion made from analysing Wintel user responses and people at
> > university.
> >
> >
> > 3. So-called ex-linux users using the excuse, "it is too hard" as an
> excuse
> > for not continuing to use Linux. Down the road at my local book store
> there
> > were hundreds of books, from linux for beginners up to programming linux
> on
> > servers, so for around $NZ99.95 (incl. GST) a user can get a book and a
> > CD-ROM giving a complete guide on how to use Linux . Why should they
read
> a
> > book? well, isn't reading a book better than looking at the idiot box
> > (television) at night.
> >
> > This conclusion reached from all the posts from Claire Lynn (now known
as
> > Sir)
> >
> >
> > 4. The so-called UNIX crushing NT4 never achieved what it set out to do,
> it
> > fact, it re-enforced the need to stick with UNIX, so in some respects,
NT4
> > was a god send for companys such as Sun Microsystems and SGI (Server
> > Division) which gave them something to mock and use as a benchmark to
> prove
> > their system reliability.
> >
> > This conclusion reached from market information and Chad's conviction
that
> > NT4 is better than UNIX.
> >
> >
> > 5. Wintel users who post here tend to have 6 months experience and can
> click
> > on the start button, hence, by Microsoft definition, they are an expert
> > computer user. I, however started off using an Amiga 500, whilst at the
> same
> > time I also taught my self how to program on a BBC-Micro with 32K mem,
> then
> > I gradually moved on to a Pentium 75 with 8MB Ram (later upgraded to
> 40MB),
> > used Windows 95a for around 1 year, got pissed off and moved onto Redhat
> > Linux 5.2, then upgraded my machine to a Pentium 200MMX with 64MB Ram,
> > installed SuSE Linux 6.0. About a year ago I upgraded to a Pentium 550e
> and
> > SuSE Linux 7.0 Professional, and here I am, next year I plan to either
> > upgrade to a SGI O2 workstation or SUN Ultra Sparc Workstation. Compare
> that
> > time line to the typical wintel poster here with the typical story of,
"I
> > bought a computer, I must be a computer expert" mentality.
>
> Enough bragging! Some windows users here have real qualifications and
> experience of computers, such as building embedded systems way back in the
> early 80's using the intel 8086 ICE (that is "in circuit emulator"). And
> writing large programs in assembler, later PL/M 86.
> Personally, I have used virtually all programming languages in my early
> engineering years, including the nice Modula-2 (which I prefer to C/C++).
> Before that I started on programming the Motorola 6800 in assembler. I
even
> used to write maths programs for my HP41CV. I have had more computers
than
> I care to remember, and currently have about (there may be more in the
> storeroom) 4 (P3/733 256MB, P/233 MMX, Cyrix 150, 486) at home, another 2
at
> work (Compaq EN P3/733 256MB, Dell P2/350). Plus an oldish laptop (Compaq
> Armada).
> Geez! Just because you have had a few machines you think you are now
> "qualified" to critisize others who you don't even know.
>
> What you guys don't realize is that nobody (> 99%) wants a difficult
> desktop. Why make something more difficult than it has to be? The goal
is
> to use the desktop to access programs to get real work done. The object
is
> *not* the desktop.
> Just because you're a mechanic doesn't mean a jalopy will suit you best.
To
> make the driver not need, or be, a mechanic *is* what is really hard to
> achieve. To my delight, Mandrake/KDE is starting to achieve this (see my
> previous post).
>
> >
> > This conclusion reached by analysising alf-assed efforts to rebuke the
> > superior technology behind Linux.
> >
> >
> > 6. When a wintel user get defeated by carefully phrased responses, they
> > change their names, aka Claire Lynn/Chad/ and any other names you care
to
> > add.
> >
> > This conclusion reached by analysing alf-assed efforts to rebuke the
> > superior technology behind Linux/UNIX.
> >
> > kiwiunixman
> >
> >
>
>
------------------------------
From: Curtis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Whistler review.
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 18:10:33 -0500
"kiwiunixman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> posted:
» I have used Windows 3.1/3.11/95/98/98se/NT/2000, NT was the biggest joke of
» them all, installed a driver and NT failed to load, resulting in a blue
» screen memory dump, not very fault tollerant or reliable!
<cough> More than the OS's you named before it??!! That's simply not
true.
Curtis,
| ,__o
!___ _-\_<, An egotist thinks he's in the groove
<(*)>--(*)/'(*)______________________ when he's in a rut.
------------------------------
From: "Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Whistler review.
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 00:08:34 +0200
"ZnU" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> In article <8vsa9p$5e8t6$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Ayende Rahien"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> > From the overall easiness of working with the system, I've to say
> > that MS took a long hard look at the iMac success, which was largely
> > based on its look and "just plug it in" slogan. And decided that they
> > can do it better.
> >
> > I would refrain from commenting whatever they actually succeeded in
> > that, because it's still a beta, and because I don't have that much
> > experiance on Macs. And practically none at all on an iMac or an
> > iBook.
> >
> > However, in its current state, I have to say that Whistler is pretty
> > awesome UI-wise.
>
> Do you mean it actually has a well thought out and constant UI, or just
> that the skins are pretty? I suspect the latter will turn out to be the
> case.
I'm having hard time defining the term bad GUI.
I'm incapable of defining it more clearly than that I don't like the way a
certain application behaves.
I read (and loved) interface hall of shame, but while I can recognize the
points that they make, I just get over them or dump the application.
I'm afraid that I'm indifferent to many of the points that the interface
hall of shame makes.
Therefor, I'm afraid I'm not the one you should ask about well though out
and constant (I assume you mean consistent) UI.
However, to the best of my ability to reach a conclustion, the UI has
improved, especially newbie-wise.
It's certainly more then bell & whistles. (no pun intended)
I am going to try it on a complete computer illeterate person, from
installing to working on it.
(The beta license is quite liberate on tihs, allowing you up to use Whistler
on up to 5 computers. I wouldn't be surprised if Ms would change the final
release license so that you've to pay for each connection to IIS, or for
each explorer window that open, or for each mailbox in IE.)
------------------------------
From: "Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Whistler review.
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 00:49:07 +0200
"kiwiunixman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:3a22e1cf$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Well you fuck off you GUI dependent mumma's boy. So, not only you can use
a
> GUI but a mouse ooooooooooo you must very bright, you fucking nittwitt.
As a note, Whistler should give you the option to turn off the GUI.
Which is something that can be very useful for a server machine.
I'm not sure if the workstation has it, or if it has, how to do this.
------------------------------
From: "Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Whistler review.
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 00:50:30 +0200
"kiwiunixman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Conrad yet ya fact right before releasing shyte into
> this newsgroup.
What dialect of english do you use?
This isn't any that I've seen.
------------------------------
From: Curtis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Whistler review.
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 18:14:16 -0500
"Bennetts family" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> posted:
[..]
» Spent time on NT, and it isn't as bad as 98, but certainly not crash hot,
» either. I haven't used 2k, because it is just NT5, with a new paint job. And
» that *matters*.
You really should use it before saying such drivel about it.
Curtis,
| ,__o
!___ _-\_<, An egotist thinks he's in the groove
<(*)>--(*)/'(*)______________________ when he's in a rut.
------------------------------
From: Chris Ahlstrom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze 2000 - just as shitty as ever
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 23:29:08 GMT
mark wrote:
>
> >No, it was me, running as root, deleting the FS.
> >It was some time ago.
> >And, like any person on this planet, I didn't suddenly gained holly
> >knowledge of the working of linux just by installing it for the first time.
>
> So you're quoting yourself deleting a filesystem whilst
> running as root, stating that you didn't know what
> you were doing, and saying that shows some kind of
> weakness in Linux (this was the /etc directory, audience).
>
> Wow.
>
> I think the weakness may be on the other side of the
> keyboard.
>
> Mark
Well, it didn't look like "C:\", did it? So it should have been
safe!
<leer>
------------------------------
From: "Bennetts family" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Whistler review.
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 10:33:42 +1100
"Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:8vupqd$5an6e$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> As a note, Whistler should give you the option to turn off the GUI.
> Which is something that can be very useful for a server machine.
> I'm not sure if the workstation has it, or if it has, how to do this.
It's Windon't. It'll never happen.
--Chris
------------------------------
From: "Bennetts family" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Whistler review.
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 10:35:36 +1100
"Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:8vulpn$5pbkd$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> There isn't, nor ever was, DOS in NT line.
> You are thinking 9x line.
> A very common mistake with linadvocates, it seems.
That's right, NT came off OS/2 LAN Manager, IIRC.
--Chris
------------------------------
From: "Bennetts family" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Whistler review.
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 10:40:11 +1100
"Curtis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> "Bennetts family" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> posted:
>
> [..]
> » Spent time on NT, and it isn't as bad as 98, but certainly not crash
hot,
> » either. I haven't used 2k, because it is just NT5, with a new paint
job. And
> » that *matters*.
>
> You really should use it before saying such drivel about it.
Yeah, sorry, I know. I don't doubt that 2k is more stable than NT4, and
Whistler will be even better, but still, there's too many bodge fixes, and
the whole thing desparately needs a rewrite from scratch.
--Chris
------------------------------
From: Chris Ahlstrom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: The Sixth Sense
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 23:40:25 GMT
Ayende Rahien wrote:
>
> "Chris Ahlstrom" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>
> How wuz I
> supposed
> > to know that all my clients had to install IE 4 for my code to work.
> > Yeeeesh!
>
> No, that is *not* windows problem.
Your right, it was a Microsoft problem.
> That is *your* problem.
It sure was, I had to deduce that COMCTRL32.DLL was at fault, because
it sure wasn't part of the Visual C++ documentation at that time.
> You application used updated DLL, which you didn't bother to check.
I learned, after that, that Microsoft modifies the addresses in DLL's
any time they want to, without warning.
> If you'd an *older* version of COMCTRL32.DLL, they you'd a case, but not
> when it's an updated version.
Nonetheless, I blame Microsoft. Also, Paul Delascia, who writes the
C++ column in MSJ (now MSDN Journal), wrote sternly of the consternation
this DLL caused in the developer community. So I wasn't the only
asshole.
> > > And, for what it worth, MS didn't release anything lately that can break
> > > Netscape, so this arguement is pointless.
> >
> > And how do you know that, my friend? Does Netscape not use any Windows
> > DLL's?
>
> If it run on windows, it use windows API.
Which many DLLs call.
> A common anti-ms arguement is that it change the API without bothering to
> tell anybody and thus breaking competitor's applications.
They didn't change the API -- they changed the location of a function
inside COMCTRL32.DLL, causing code that used the new location to
of course crash when the function was still at the old location.
All I can say is, Microsoft has never been up front about providing
change pages. At least Borland tells you what to expect.
Chris
--
[ ] Encrypt Microsoft.
------------------------------
** FOR YOUR REFERENCE **
The service address, to which questions about the list itself and requests
to be added to or deleted from it should be directed, is:
Internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
You can send mail to the entire list (and comp.os.linux.advocacy) via:
Internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Linux may be obtained via one of these FTP sites:
ftp.funet.fi pub/Linux
tsx-11.mit.edu pub/linux
sunsite.unc.edu pub/Linux
End of Linux-Advocacy Digest
******************************
