Linux-Advocacy Digest #625, Volume #30 Sun, 3 Dec 00 11:13:04 EST
Contents:
Re: how come Dell makes you buy Windows with all their PC's? (jtnews)
Re: WINDOZE is awful ("MH")
Re: Dumbing down linux? (SwifT -)
Re: A Tholen exodus! ("Joe Malloy")
Re: Linux is awful (H Dziardziel)
Re: Red hat becoming illegal? (Chris Ahlstrom)
Re: Goodwin Acknowledges he's an idiot. ("sandrews")
Re: [OT] Gore & Bush ("JS/PL")
Re: Windoze 2000 - just as shitty as ever (Chris Ahlstrom)
Re: Red hat becoming illegal? (Chris Ahlstrom)
Re: Red hat becoming illegal? (Chris Ahlstrom)
Re: A little advocacy ("Adam Ruth")
Re: Anyone have to use (*GAG*) Windows on the job? (Stuart Fox)
Re: Goodwin Acknowledges he's an idiot. ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Windoze 2000 - just as shitty as ever (Chris Ahlstrom)
Re: Anyone have to use (*GAG*) Windows on the job? (Charlie Ebert)
Re: Windows 2000 sucks compared to linux ("Adam Ruth")
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 08:21:57 -0500
From: jtnews <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: how come Dell makes you buy Windows with all their PC's?
Donovan Rebbechi wrote:
> Last I checked, aslab offer better prices than Dell. IMO, you are at
> fault for being too narrow-minded to support Linux-friendly vendors.
I looked at aslab, trouble is, they're not really using the components
I want, a Creative Soundblaster chip and an Intel or Nvidia graphics
chip.
While they offer an option for a Creative Soundblaster, you have to
call-in.
Hmm, I wonder why.
Also, I want to buy a CD-RW drive. With Dell, for an extra $99, I can
get
one. Also, note that Aslab's price point at the low end is still
significantly
higher than Dell. Going with Dell, I can get a PC for $678.
I'm also planning on buying a linksys 10/100 PCI ethernet card for $14
and a Western Digital 45GB Caviar drive for $133 dollars, plus
crucial.com
(Micron) SDRAM 128MB for $71.09.
Total price with Dell, $678 + $14 + $133 + $71.09 = $896
Still cheaper than Aslab, even with all of that!
By the way, you can retrieve my saved cart yourself, and play with the
options, use
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and a reference number of 1620441.
at
http://commerce.us.dell.com/dellstore/svcart_r1_access.asp
========================================================================
Dell
Dimension L Series (Required)
Dimension® L600cx, Intel® Celeron[tm]
Processor at 600 MHz
$678.00
Date: Sunday, December 03, 2000 6:52:35 AM CDT
Dimension L Series
(Required):
Dimension® L600cx, Intel®
Celeron[tm] Processor at 600 MHz
L60XVW - [220-7017]
Memory:
64MB SDRAM
64M - [311-0880]
Keyboard:
QuietKey® Keyboard
W - [310-7002]
Monitor:
Video Ready w/o Monitor
N - [320-3000]
Video Card:
Intel 3D AGP Graphics
IV - [412-5165][430-3900]
Hard Drive:
10GB Ultra ATA Hard Drive (5400 RPM)
10SL - [340-2809]
Floppy Drive:
1.44MB Floppy Drive
3 - [340-7983]
Operating System:
Microsoft® Windows® Millennium (Windows Me)
Mouse:
Logitech First Mouse+ Wheel (PS/2v)
Broadband
Ready/Ethernet
Network Card:
No Network Card Requested
Modem:
No Modem Requested
CD/DVD ROM Drive:
8x/4x/32x CD-RW Drive
Sound Card:
Soundblaster 64V PCI with Music Match Software
Speakers:
harman/kardon Speakers
Bundled Software:
EducateU Holiday Bonus Pack
Norton Antivirus®
at no additional
charge:
Norton Antivirus® 2000 for Windows Millennium
Limited Warranty
and Support:
1 Yr. Next Business Day On-Site Parts&Labor, Yrs 2&3 Parts
Internet Access
Service:
1-Year DellNet[tm]by MSN®Internet Access Service
Resolution
Assistant:
Resolution Assistant
Proactive Support
at no additional
charge:
Dell Proactive Support by Attune
Choose Your
Promo!:
Free! Intel Easy PC Camera Pack
======================================================================
Aslab Prices
Duron 700MHZ Duron 800MHZ
64MB $914 $958
128MB $968 $1,011
256MB $1,100 $1,144
IBM DTLA 20GB Ultra ATA/100 hard drive, 7200rpm, 2MB cache
Matrox Millennium G450 DualHead 16MB AGP graphic card
50X Ultra DMA CDROM
Integrated AC'97 audio
Intel 82559 Wake-On-Lan 10/100Mbps Fast Ethernet adapter
Micro ATX Case with 180W Power Supply
Mandrakesoft Linux-Mandrake 7.1
Sun StarOffice 5.1
Options:
Upgrade hard drive from 20GB to 30/45/60/75GB - $call
Upgrade AC'97 audio to Soundblaster PCI 128/Live Value -
$call
Replace Linux-Mandrake with Red Hat Linux 6.2 - no charge
====== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ======
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
======= Over 80,000 Newsgroups = 16 Different Servers! ======
------------------------------
From: "MH" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.linux,comp.os.linux.x,comp.os.ms-windows,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,alt.os.linux,alt.os.linux.mandrake
Subject: Re: WINDOZE is awful
Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 09:11:50 -0500
Uh,.. Mr. Conductor sir. Could we stop the train now please?
I really need to get off now......HURRY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> For Bill is a jealous CEO and will abide no other OS before him. And his
> minions shall smite all others from the land of heads, cylinders, and
> sectors as they shall find them. And the mouths of the elders shall be
> bound so no one shall be able to cry out "Foul Monopoly" in the land of
> marketing, though the bankrupted widows and orphans of the slain shall
> have no relief. But behold! The High shall be made Low. From out of the
> Light, mighty Deamons and Penguins appear. They come to pour scented
> balms upon the wounds of the afflicted. And to bind these wounds whilst
> asking naught in return but admonish, "Go ye likewise and do unto
> others."
> - Amen -
------------------------------
From: SwifT - <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Dumbing down linux?
Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 15:16:56 +0100
On Sun, 3 Dec 2000, Rodrigo Iglesias wrote:
> Even when I prefer that each computer operation (the installation as
> an example) could be done in two or more ways (console with no
> assistants and framebuffer as an example), the thing that makes me not
> liking Redhat are including too experimental code just because of
> marketing and selling matters. Simply that.
Although you are correct in comparison with the 7.0-release (who had no
good reviews at all), the 6.2 was very stable and had no experimental
RPM's (unless you asked for them). I don't know of the others (<6.2) but
still...
--
SwifT
------------------------------
From: "Joe Malloy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: A Tholen exodus!
Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 14:37:15 GMT
Tholen tholes again!
> How does that represent proof for your claim? Intuition comes from
> experience.
So sez Tholen, meanwhile, my dictionaries say nothing about "experience".
> If you don't have the experience, then you need to consult
> a manual. You're hypothesizing a situation in which there is no
> experience.
Liar.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (H Dziardziel)
Subject: Re: Linux is awful
Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 15:23:10 GMT
On Sat, 2 Dec 2000 08:28:22 +0000, Pete Goodwin
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Avinash Meetoo wrote:
>
>> Many people forget that installing Linux often means installing Linux
>> while preserving Windows (ie do a dual-boot system). And it's pretty
>> normal that doing that is more complicated that simply installing
>> Windows ONLY on a PC.
>
>Not that much more complicated.
>
>> Those who say that Win installation is a breeze should try to install it
>> on a Linux PC and try to get a dual boot system...
>
>What do you think I am running on now? On one disk is Windows, on the other
>is Linux. Not that hard at all.
>
>--
>Pete, running KDE2 on Linux Mandrake 7.2, dual booting with Windows 98 SE.
>
Believe most "users" will try to install a second o/s on the same hard
drive the original is on already, and they probably only have one hdd.
Dos/win proper will install on any partition or drive but the booting
defaults to only the first primary on the first drive. Only clever
boot managers, software or people, can work around this- not "normal
users". Even two hdd's with the bootable first already with a non-ms
o/s mean major reconstruction of the boot process and perhaps even
hardware reconnections etc., all not a normal user procedure. So, I
agree Linux is the easier addition but by no means a snap either- no
multi o/s installation would be.
Regretfully some of the new Linux distributions also try to take over
hardrives be default at installation , so also, not "normal user"
friendly if there is only one drive for the system.
------------------------------
From: Chris Ahlstrom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Red hat becoming illegal?
Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 15:34:56 GMT
Tim Smith wrote:
>
> On Sat, 02 Dec 2000 18:38:26 -0500, Glitch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >well to be honest the legal system never thought we would have such a
> >crybaby loser like we have with Gore so b/c of him we are having a 30
> >day election instead of a 1 day election with some votes counted 5 times
> >and the other 95% counted once.
>
> So you think Gore should just give up, even though the difference in the
> current totals is well under the margin of error for the way the votes
> were counted? There are many sources of errors in vote counting, and
> normally these don't matter, because the difference is big enough that
> even if all the errors went the same way, it would not have made a
> difference. That's not so in this case. That fact that every time they
> use a more accurate counting method, the difference narrows, indicates
> that they have not yet found a good procedure. Gore owes it to those
> who voted for him to keep fighting until there is actually good evidence
> that he is not rightful winner.
If Bush were on the other side of this count, his party would be just
as contentious and whiny (you'd see posters like "Bash/Shamey" or
"Bosh/Shammy" or somesuch).
What the frikkin' pundits don't mention is that, in 1960, when Tricky
Dick narrowly lost, the Republican party litigated in the same way
as the Democrats now.
If you want to hear a bunch of people who whine even when they're
winning, look at the Republicans.
Chris
------------------------------
From: "sandrews" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Goodwin Acknowledges he's an idiot.
Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 10:34:40 +0500
In article <909ak0$5ph$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "MH"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> The GPL situation guarantees future software develpment will be for
>> exciting products which do not currently exist.
>
> Uh huh. Like Gecko? I think that work has been going on for 3 years.
> Read the reviews yet? It's every bit and more the bug fest that
> windows apps provide. Half of the Gnome apps core on a regular basis.
> I guess that IS exciting.
yah right, I have been running GNOME with all the goodies for 2 years
now and I have yet to have anything GNOME related core. I haven't had
any Linux app core in over a year. Now what dol the wintrolls have to say
now?
>
>> The GNU/GPL has been around enough and sucessful enough the question
>> of Windows future demise is assured.
>
> Gee, where have we heard THIS before?
>
>> It's already too late for the Windows programmer.
>
> Tell that to the guy with the 5 bedroom house who delivers opinions
> like yours in his stool.
>
>> He's a thing from the last century.
>
> Yeah, and probably your landlord too.
>
>
------------------------------
From: "JS/PL" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: [OT] Gore & Bush
Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 10:40:42 -0500
"Stefan Ohlsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Bob Hauck wrote:
> >On Sat, 02 Dec 2000 18:38:26 -0500, Glitch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>well to be honest the legal system never thought we would have such a
> >>crybaby loser like we have with Gore so b/c of him we are having a 30
> >>day election instead of a 1 day election with some votes counted 5 times
> >>and the other 95% counted once.
> >Gore did win the popular vote nationally, so your man Bush was really
> >the minority choice. If the tables were turned, would you be telling
> >Bush to concede or would you be insisting that he's only taking
> >advantage of the options available and saying that the electoral
> >college system needs to be thrown out?
> >
> I'm sorry to budge in, but I just want to say what I think of this
> and that is that it is just sad.
>
> Gore is afraid to lose if a recount isn't made
> Bush is afraid to lose if a recount _is_ made.
>
> Why couldn't they just have done the recount and then accept the
> result of it? Instead they act like children in a sandbox trying to get
> votes included and excluded, recounts made and disallowed.
Because the Gore camp wants all ballots not specifically and clearly
intended for the other candidates to count towards Gore by default. Yes, the
Bush camp does not want a recount to be valid under those conditions.
------------------------------
From: Chris Ahlstrom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze 2000 - just as shitty as ever
Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 15:38:33 GMT
Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
>
> No. If you don't compensate people for their work, chances are they will
> not continue to offer it. It's called common sense.
>
> If you like something, pay for it. Even if you don't have to.
Of course, another form of payment that often works wonders is to write
to the programmers and tell them how much you enjoy their contribution,
or tell them of bugs you've found, or even how to fix them. Sometimes,
just knowing your code is useful "out there" is payment enough. That's
part of the beauty of open source.
It is true, though, the many people just go to the site to pillage
the FTP directories, and give nothing back.
Chris
------------------------------
From: Chris Ahlstrom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Red hat becoming illegal?
Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 15:42:50 GMT
Tom Wilson wrote:
>
> <soapbox>
>
> As it stands, they're putting 2002 senate races in jeopardy. Mark my
> words, the longer this goes on, the more seats they'll lose. Now, any
> efforts by them to tie up the senate to counter Bush proposals will appear
> as more sour grapes. In 2004, they're going to nominate Hillary Clinton.
> Just watch. It will be an unmitigated disaster!
>
> IDIOTS!
>
> </soapbox>
Man who stand on soapbox, often slip up.
------------------------------
From: Chris Ahlstrom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Red hat becoming illegal?
Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 15:47:05 GMT
Russ Lyttle wrote:
>
> Still, I don't like RedHat making such contracts. But that is just my
> opinion that they aren't being nice and tarnishing their image.
It is probably Dell's choice. Better to stick with one competent vendor,
whom you might be able to influence to increase system versional
stability, than to risk jumping between distros and making the
OS too fluid for maintenance.
Not that I'm not advocating other distros... I'm seriously thinking
of stripping NT from my old, floppyless laptop and installing something
better... one of the Linux's.
Chris
------------------------------
From: "Adam Ruth" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: A little advocacy
Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 08:49:36 -0700
The only one I know of is OpenSSH with Cygwin. I've never used the server
just the client, but it works perfectly for me.
"sfcybear" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message >
> Very cool! Welcome to a new world of stability and managability. You
> said you use SSH. Do you know of a good sshd service for windowsNT? The
> one I had tried is a poor port of the Unix code....
>
>
>
> >
>
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: Stuart Fox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Anyone have to use (*GAG*) Windows on the job?
Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 15:51:10 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Charlie Ebert:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In article <aMcW5.5420$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> Pete Goodwin wrote:
> >Charlie Ebert wrote:
> >
> >> MF is of course the british company Micro Focus.
> >> I thought you would at least know that.
> >
> >Why would I know that Charlie? I've never heard Micro Focus referred
to as
> >MF.
> >
> >So, Charlie, what's your answer? Why are you still using software to
which
> >MF have no answer? Why aren't you suing them? Why aren't you
changing to
> >something better?
> >
>
> No we are not sueing MF.
> MF is the only company in the world which provides a compiler
> adequate for replacing our mainframes Cobol compiler.
>
> MF say's the problem is with Windows but they don't
> know why.
>
So how do they know the problem is with Windows? If they don't know
why, they can't really say what the cause is can they?
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Goodwin Acknowledges he's an idiot.
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 16:07:30 GMT
On Sun, 03 Dec 2000 10:34:40 +0500, "sandrews"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> yah right, I have been running GNOME with all the goodies for 2 years
>now and I have yet to have anything GNOME related core. I haven't had
>any Linux app core in over a year. Now what dol the wintrolls have to say
>now?
Based upon the stability versions of Gnome that were available two
years ago, we say you are full of crap.
claire
------------------------------
From: Chris Ahlstrom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze 2000 - just as shitty as ever
Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 16:08:21 GMT
Ayende Rahien wrote:
>
> Have you even tried comparing memory footprints?
> Right now, OE is taking 15MB (peak at 30MB), IE 7MB (peak at 17MB).
> Netscape reached 40MB (peak at 65MB at which point I terminated it because
> it seem to just want more and more) easily, by simply surfing with *one*
> window open. And just openning it would take 22- 25MB.
> Trying to do things with more than one window open increase memory usage in
> a totally unacceptable ways.
On my linux box, Navigator and Messenger use 16.9 Mb. Adding another instance
of Navigator adds about 0.5 Mb.
You have to take these numbers with a grain of salt. There are different
ways to grab memory in Win32. The question may just be how much can you
do before the "Out of Virtual Memory" box comes up (in NT 4).
Chris
--
Are you sure you want to read this message?
Click Okay to continue, and Cancel to okay
this dialog.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Charlie Ebert)
Subject: Re: Anyone have to use (*GAG*) Windows on the job?
Reply-To: Charlie Ebert:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 16:08:25 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Aaron R. Kulkis wrote:
>Charlie Ebert wrote:
>>
>> In article <aMcW5.5420$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
>> Pete Goodwin wrote:
>> >Charlie Ebert wrote:
>> >
>> >> MF is of course the british company Micro Focus.
>> >> I thought you would at least know that.
>> >
>> >Why would I know that Charlie? I've never heard Micro Focus referred to as
>> >MF.
>> >
>> >So, Charlie, what's your answer? Why are you still using software to which
>> >MF have no answer? Why aren't you suing them? Why aren't you changing to
>> >something better?
>> >
>>
>> No we are not sueing MF.
>> MF is the only company in the world which provides a compiler
>> adequate for replacing our mainframes Cobol compiler.
>>
>> MF say's the problem is with Windows but they don't
>> know why.
>>
>> >You're in this group whining about Windows 2000 but what are you _doing_
>> >about it?
>> >
>> >--
>> >Pete, running KDE2 on Linux Mandrake 7.2
>> >
>>
>> There's nothing you can do about it.
>> They don't have Net Express for Unix.
>>
>> They stupidly decided they were not going to support
>> an equivalent product for unix.
>>
>> So there's another fucked company on planet earth.
>>
>> What can I say.
>
>You can say to them, "In light of your decision not to support
>Linux, we will be starting a search for a replacement product that
>IS on linux, to be adopted 1st Quarter, 2002.
>
>That should grab the attention of the sales department...
>it CHALLENGES them to come up with a way to save the sales,
>and gives them adequate time to demonstrate a reasonable effort
>to meet your specifications.
>
>In the mean time....do EXACTLY as what you have told them.
>
>
In 1999 we were part of a marketing campaign for Micro Focus
and had a dozen magazine interviews and were getting phone
calls from all over the planet. My company name and title
were published along with my boss and we expressed our
views about MF Net Express. I told 3 of the magazines
that we would have picked Linux as our target platform
had it not been for the fact there is NO COBOL compiler
available for Linux which is suitable for this kind
of business.
I was called up by a MF VP to ask why I did this to them.
I said I told the magazine this because this is what I
believe. He got heated about this and cancelled further
magazine interview for our company. Further, the decision
to put our company name as a reverence on every box
of Net Express was cancelled.
Next thing I know, one year later, they have a smaller
less capable version of MF cobol available for Linux.
It appears to be their former UNIX version they seemed
to have cancelled 2 years ago for UNIX.
>>
>> Charlie
>
>
>--
>Aaron R. Kulkis
>Unix Systems Engineer
>ICQ # 3056642
>
What we need is the full NET EXPRESS version of COBOL
for Linux and I don't know if we are going to get it.
OR
The GNU is developing a compiler and is about half way
thru the development process. And if I had my choice
now, I will wait for the GNU one.
And I think you understand why Aaron.
Charlie
------------------------------
From: "Adam Ruth" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt,comp.os.ms-windows,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windows 2000 sucks compared to linux
Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 09:06:58 -0700
> False.
> A properly configured Win2K has no problems staying up for as long as you
> like.
> The only reason it's not up for years is because it's less than a year in
> the market.
I have to disagree with you here. My 2 cents, from my experience.
I've been involved with the set up of more than 200 NT Servers, about 5 2000
Servers, and 5 Linux Servers. Most of the NT Servers were at a bank (I was
on their Y2K project).
Not 1 of the NT Servers was up more than 6 weeks. Actually, that's not
true, one SQL Server remained up for 3 months but had to be moved. So I
guess kudos for whomever set up that machine. Some of the rest of the
machines had scheduled reboots anywhere from every night to every couple of
weeks. This was to prevent them crashing in the middle of the day. Most of
the time, they didn't crash, though, it's just that a service died and
couldn't be restarted. I shook with fear everytime I clicked 'Stop' in the
Services Control Panel.
The 2000 Servers fared better, though, I think that on has been up for about
4 months. I'm not really sure, I'm not with that company anymore. But most
of them have had to be rebooted for the same 'dead service' reason. It may
be stable if you NEVER EVER EVER TOUCH IT, but that just doesn' t happen in
the real world.
The Linux Servers are another matter entirely. Never has one of them
crashed. The 1st server I set up has been up for 192 days now. And I've
upgraded the database server, the web server, the ssh server, the dns
server, and the mail server. Nary a reboot. The only times the other's
have been down is to be moved, or someone uplugged them, or a hardware
failure.
Anyway, that's my 'real world' experience. Your mileage may vary.
Adam Ruth
------------------------------
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