Linux-Advocacy Digest #270, Volume #32 Sat, 17 Feb 01 15:13:05 EST
Contents:
Re: Linux and QA (Aaron Kulkis)
Re: Whistler/.NET will Help Linux (Aaron Kulkis)
Re: Whistler/.NET will Help Linux (Aaron Kulkis)
Re: Which Linux? (Charlie Ebert)
Re: Microsoft says Linux threatens innovation (Charlie Ebert)
Re: Interesting article ("Les Mikesell")
Re: Linux and QA (Perry Pip)
Re: Interesting article ("Les Mikesell")
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Aaron Kulkis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linux and QA
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 14:32:27 -0500
Perry Pip wrote:
>
> On Sat, 17 Feb 2001 09:28:35 GMT,
> Pete Goodwin <imekon@$$$REMOVE$$$.freeuk.com> wrote:
> >What kind of testing is done on Linux distributions?
>
> That depends on the distribution. With debian, the testing cycle,
> i.e. the time it takes for a particular dist name (i.e. slink, potato,
> woody, sid) to move from 'unstable' to 'testing' to 'stable' status is
> typically over a year.
>
> >Is it a manual test?
> >
>
> Public beta testing. In the case of debian, for well over a year.
>
> >A patently bad test as is obvious in Linux Mandrake 7.2?
>
> Mandrake is a POS AFIAC, and has done a disservice to the Linux
> community. They started out as nothing but an exact clone of Redhat
> 5.2, but with KDE added to give it some eye candy. Since one could
> have added KDE to RH 5.2 anyways, the added value of Mandrake was
> nil. Then when they started adding their own stuff to the dist, they
> did a shitty job of it. Thus the added value became negative.
>
> Ever notice Mandrakes version numbers, which started out the same as
> RH when they forked off from RH, are always about 0.2 higher that
> RH. That's nothing but a cheap marketing ploy to fool potential
> newbies looking at shrink wrapped Linux dists in the store into
> thinking that Mandrake is a later version of Linux than Redhat. Suse,
> unfortunately, has resorted the same BS tactic to try to increase
> their sales.
The problem is this....
Redhat Linux X.Y
SuSE Linux W.Z
To the uninformed (Linux-wise), English grammatical rules
imply that the meaning is:
Redhat's version of "Linux X.Y"
and
SuSE's version of "Linux W.Z"
the X.Y and W.Z are more tightly, and misleadingly associated with
the word Linux than with the Brand name (to which it *actually* applies)
>
> >Is it automated?
> >
> >Are the scripts out there that can be run to verify a system?
> >
>
> There may be automated regression tests on various individual
> packages, but I'm not sure what you mean by an automated test on an
> entire distribution. An entire dist will have large numbers of
> alternative packages and support a wide variety of hardware. Is there
> a script used to test every release of Windows?? Or does MS do public
> beta tests??
>
> >What "Quality Assurance" is done on Linux systems?
> >
>
> That's a very complex question, as it is for windows too. But at least
> open source is subject to public code review, can have much earlier
> alpha/beta test releases, and in the case of a noncommercial dist like
> debian, is not driven by marketing schedules and interests.
>
> >Linux Mandrake 7.2 - not recommended - see the topic titled
> >"Downgrading to Mandrake 7.2 - did Linux become a windoze clone?"
> >
>
> Quite frankly, unless you change your attitude Pete, you won't be
> happy with any Linux. If you spent just half the time you spend
> whining on this NG sincerely trying to understand and properly fix
> your Linux problems you would have your box working flawlessly, even
> with a POS like Mandrake.
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Engineer
DNRC Minister of all I survey
ICQ # 3056642
H: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
you are lazy, stupid people"
I: Loren Petrich's 2-week stubborn refusal to respond to the
challenge to describe even one philosophical difference
between himself and the communists demonstrates that, in fact,
Loren Petrich is a COMMUNIST ***hole
J: Other knee_jerk reactionaries: billh, david casey, redc1c4,
The retarded sisters: Raunchy (rauni) and Anencephielle (Enielle),
also known as old hags who've hit the wall....
A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
B: Jet Silverman plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a
method of sidetracking discussions which are headed in a
direction that she doesn't like.
C: Jet Silverman claims to have killfiled me.
D: Jet Silverman now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
...despite (C) above.
E: Jet is not worthy of the time to compose a response until
her behavior improves.
F: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
G: Knackos...you're a retard.
------------------------------
From: Aaron Kulkis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Whistler/.NET will Help Linux
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 14:35:04 -0500
Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
>
> "Bob Hauck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > On Thu, 15 Feb 2001 22:22:57 -0600, Erik Funkenbusch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
> > >"Bob Hauck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > >news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >
> > >> I think .NET is more akin to "Cairo" than to MS Bob or Money. In terms
> > >> of it's intended scope and effect on the market.
> > >
> > > Perhaps, however pieces of .NET are appearing all the time, whereas
> Cairo
> > > was mostly vapor for a long time, waiting for the one big release.
> >
> > Which of course never came. But that didn't matter because OS/2 and
> > it's OO shell was out of the picture.
>
> About the only part of Cairo that was promised that never happened was the
> OO File system.
>
> > > OS/2 had some of the same problems that Linux has, particularly that
> > > "bolted on" feel to the shell and GPI.
> >
> > I thought the WPS was a lot better than the original Win95. It was
> > incomplete (e.g. some programs were document-centric, others weren't),
> > but I don't think that makes it "bolted on". Perhaps by "bolted on" you
> > mean having to do some system configuration via text files? I prefer
> > that to the registry, thanks.
>
> The WPS always had an artificial feel to it for me. It was probably the
> overhead that SOM introduced, but I found it sluggish and out of synch with
> the majority of apps that I used (most were written for OS/2 1.3 or VIO).
> Windows 3.1 integration was anything but seamless. Windows 95 however, had
> truly seamless 16 bit support.
>
> > In any case, OS/2 was a much better OS than Win95, technically. The GUI
> > is not why it failed to take over the world and it won't be the reason
> > Linux doesn't (if it doesn't).
>
> I disagree. I think the GUI is what makes or breaks a graphical OS. It's
> what kept apple afloat all these years, and it's been primarily what kept MS
> on top and will continue to.
>
> > Whether you think you are a cheeleader or not, your postings here say
> > that you are. As do mine, BTW, but for a different team. Maybe I
> > should go easy on you though, as you seem to be having a crisis of
> > confidence in your team. That seems to be going around. Did you read
> > Al Stevens' column in Dr. Dobbs this month?
>
> I am on no "team" but my own. You don't see me congratulating Chad or
> whoever happens to whip out something negative about Linux (whether true or
> not), unlike both Aaron and Charlie who never miss an opportunity to gloat
> and pat each other on the back, let the facts be damned.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
What the fuck are you talking about, Erik the Amusingly-Named...
>
> All my statements here have always been summarized by a few key points:
>
> 1) MS and/or Windows are not as bad as most of you make out. Not by a long
> shot (note that this does not translate to either of them being perfect or
> innocent)
>
> 2) Linux is not as perfect as most of you make out, and in fact has many
> flaws that actually *DO* matter to the average user.
>
> 3) I *LIKE* Many pieces of MS technology. The work well for me. I also
> use FreeBSD (currently) and it also works well for me, for what I use it
> for. Linux failed for me where FreeBSD succeeded.
>
> > >> What you just wrote is exactly why I am so skeptical of .NET.
> >
> > > Well, it's already out there. We're using Beta's of it. People are
> > > already implementing sites in it. Companies are beginning development
> > > of new projects in it. It's out there, it's just not finished yet.
> >
> > So what is it? Sounds like it is a big basket into which the marketing
> > department places:
>
> Well, like many Microsoft umbrella names, it is a name for multiple
> technologies that are being marketed together, and being technically
> designed to work with each other. Most of it is based on some form of the
> Common Language Runtime, such as Managed C++, C#, VB.NET, ASP.NET, Winforms,
> Webforms (the ability to publish a standalone app to the web nearly
> seamlessly), etc.. It's a development and runtime framework. Yes, it
> gateways to existing technologies like DCOM/COM+, etc..
>
> The key point is that it's a platform, and MS needs it to succeed in order
> to make Itanium work, and to reduce their development costs for the Mac.
>
> > It might well be too late. Jim Allchin seems to think that what's good
> > for MS is good for the country.
>
> Jim Allchin isn't trying to outlaw Open Source, he's trying to generate
> sympathy in congress and gain support for their appeal.
Translation....he's trying to draw attention away from the fact that M$
has been a criminal organization for well over 15 years.
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Engineer
DNRC Minister of all I survey
ICQ # 3056642
H: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
you are lazy, stupid people"
I: Loren Petrich's 2-week stubborn refusal to respond to the
challenge to describe even one philosophical difference
between himself and the communists demonstrates that, in fact,
Loren Petrich is a COMMUNIST ***hole
J: Other knee_jerk reactionaries: billh, david casey, redc1c4,
The retarded sisters: Raunchy (rauni) and Anencephielle (Enielle),
also known as old hags who've hit the wall....
A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
B: Jet Silverman plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a
method of sidetracking discussions which are headed in a
direction that she doesn't like.
C: Jet Silverman claims to have killfiled me.
D: Jet Silverman now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
...despite (C) above.
E: Jet is not worthy of the time to compose a response until
her behavior improves.
F: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
G: Knackos...you're a retard.
------------------------------
From: Aaron Kulkis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Whistler/.NET will Help Linux
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 14:37:27 -0500
Bloody Viking wrote:
>
> T. Max Devlin ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
>
> : I believe it is every citizens responsibility to provide false
> : information in all such circumstances. I love it; it gives me a warm
> : glow knowing that I'm casually and without a thought causing their
> : database to be just that little bit more worthless.
>
> I thought of going as "Oliver Troglodyte" at APT. 404 address *. The name can
> only be decrypted by people into chimpanzees! ("troglodyte" being the second
> word in "Pan troglodyte" the species name of conventional chimpanzees) A
> second name I considered is Antonio Panisco, a joke on "Jabriol" of
> talk.origins infamy whereby "panisco" is hispanified for "paniscus", the second
> word in the species name of bonobos being Pan paniscus, the "Jerry Springer
> Ape". Oliver Panisco would work out nicely at APT 404 should work fine.
>
> Show off your roots from 5M years ago! (:
You really are fascinated by monkees, arent' you.
>
> --
> FOOD FOR THOUGHT: 100 calories are used up in the course of a mile run.
> The USDA guidelines for dietary fibre is equal to one ounce of sawdust.
> The liver makes the vast majority of the cholesterol in your bloodstream.
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Engineer
DNRC Minister of all I survey
ICQ # 3056642
H: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
you are lazy, stupid people"
I: Loren Petrich's 2-week stubborn refusal to respond to the
challenge to describe even one philosophical difference
between himself and the communists demonstrates that, in fact,
Loren Petrich is a COMMUNIST ***hole
J: Other knee_jerk reactionaries: billh, david casey, redc1c4,
The retarded sisters: Raunchy (rauni) and Anencephielle (Enielle),
also known as old hags who've hit the wall....
A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
B: Jet Silverman plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a
method of sidetracking discussions which are headed in a
direction that she doesn't like.
C: Jet Silverman claims to have killfiled me.
D: Jet Silverman now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
...despite (C) above.
E: Jet is not worthy of the time to compose a response until
her behavior improves.
F: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
G: Knackos...you're a retard.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Charlie Ebert)
Subject: Re: Which Linux?
Reply-To: Charlie Ebert:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 19:42:48 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
>
>
>Ant wrote:
>>
>> I got a older 486 laptop with 5 meg of ram and a floppy drive, No CD-ROM. I
>> want to install a version of Linux on it to get some experience for a job
>> position I am applying for in Web Support. Which version should I install?
>
{SNIPIA} The IAN's are attacking!
I have a 486 Toshiba with 5 megs of ram and a 500 mb hard disk.
It's running Debian potato 2.2 R2 just fine.
No X windows as 5 megs of ram isn't enought, but I have mutt for E-mail,
SSH, Lynx for web browsing, and slrn for newsreading working just fine.
I also have the Emacs and c++ compilers working fine.
What AK forgot to warn you about is if you have limited drive space you
might not want to install all that Suse with YAST2, use YAST1.
Or you could just use Debian which is really set up for this kind of
work.
Now, in that 5 megs of memory I could set up an X-server and run X just
as AK suggested and probably work in BlackBox which is a light weight
window manager. It would be SLOW! How slow I don't really know.
Perhaps I should attempt this today and find out.
Here's another appealing option for you! You can go backwards in time
with Linux and grap a copy of 2.0 Debian which has leaner kernels and
leaner X servers and get better performance. It was that era which
was really designed for the 486 in mind. You could compile in SSH
if you wanted to use Secure Shell, and get buy pretty well.
Debian still has this on their FTP archives. You could install it
from there or burn a CD.
Along time ago, in 386 land I was on Slackware. Slackware was Linux's
first distribution and was the largest until recently. You could get
very peppy performance from these 95-96 distributions but they wouldn't
have proper support for say your audio/sound and maybe your video.
You'd be in VGA mode all the time.
--
Charlie
**DEBIAN** **GNU**
/ / __ __ __ __ __ __ __
/ /__ / / / \/ / / /_/ / \ \/ /
/_____/ /_/ /_/\__/ /_____/ /_/\_\
http://www.debian.org
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Charlie Ebert)
Subject: Re: Microsoft says Linux threatens innovation
Reply-To: Charlie Ebert:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 19:44:53 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
>
>
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>
>> Flacco wrote:
>> >
>> > > It's interesting to note that the whole phenomenon of Microsoft vs. Open
>> > > Source most likely wouldn't exist had IBM not (albeit, unthinkingly)
>> > > 'open-sourced' the PC architecture.
>> >
>> > I don't buy that. It just wouldn't be taking place on IBM hardware with MS
>> > software.
>>
>> If IBM had not 'open-sourced' the PC architecture, PCs may not have had
>> the success they did. It may be that the discussion would be
>> open-source v Apple
>
>There were Apple clones in the early 1980's.
>
>Franklin was selling them in 1981.
>
This is TRUE! A distant former Boss of mine actually had
one of these! I'm shocked you remember this!
>
>> --
>> http://www.guild.bham.ac.uk/chess-club
>
>--
>Aaron R. Kulkis
>Unix Systems Engineer
>DNRC Minister of all I survey
>ICQ # 3056642
>
>
>H: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
> premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
> you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
> you are lazy, stupid people"
>
>I: Loren Petrich's 2-week stubborn refusal to respond to the
> challenge to describe even one philosophical difference
> between himself and the communists demonstrates that, in fact,
> Loren Petrich is a COMMUNIST ***hole
>
>J: Other knee_jerk reactionaries: billh, david casey, redc1c4,
> The retarded sisters: Raunchy (rauni) and Anencephielle (Enielle),
> also known as old hags who've hit the wall....
>
>A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
>
>B: Jet Silverman plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a
> method of sidetracking discussions which are headed in a
> direction that she doesn't like.
>
>C: Jet Silverman claims to have killfiled me.
>
>D: Jet Silverman now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
> ...despite (C) above.
>
>E: Jet is not worthy of the time to compose a response until
> her behavior improves.
>
>F: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
> adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
>
>G: Knackos...you're a retard.
--
Charlie
**DEBIAN** **GNU**
/ / __ __ __ __ __ __ __
/ /__ / / / \/ / / /_/ / \ \/ /
/_____/ /_/ /_/\__/ /_____/ /_/\_\
http://www.debian.org
------------------------------
From: "Les Mikesell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Interesting article
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 19:54:09 GMT
"Todd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:96l3du$vok$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> "Peter Köhlmann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > Steve Mading wrote:
> > > In comp.os.linux.advocacy Chad Myers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > : No, really, what has changed dramatically in Unix in the
> > > : last 10 years?
> > >
> > > : We still use telnet
> > >
> > > Never heard of ssh?
> > >
> > No, Chad has not heard of ssh, because windows hasn`t got any.
> > W2K has telnet, and a real crappy one to boot.
>
> Actually, W2k has rcmd... a more secured version of telnet. NT/W2k has
had
> rcmd and rcmdsvr for quite some time... one reason that NT lacked a telnet
> server. It just wasn't needed in a Windows only environment.
>
> -Todd
Oh, it has always been needed. It just isn't usable in a windows only
environment
until the missing underlying command line utilities are added too. Win2k
seems to have them, but I still haven't found any real overview of what they
are and how to use them, and there are still quirks like the:
iisreset othermachine /reboot
command sometimes working, sometimes not, while the seemingly
equivalent dialog from the management console has a different set
of failure modes.
Les Mikesell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Perry Pip)
Subject: Re: Linux and QA
Date: 17 Feb 2001 20:01:50 GMT
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Sat, 17 Feb 2001 10:33:10 -0800,
Salvador Peralta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Perry Pip quoth:
>
>> Mandrake is a POS AFIAC, and has done a disservice to the Linux
>> community. They started out as nothing but an exact clone of Redhat
>> 5.2, but with KDE added to give it some eye candy. Since one could
>> have added KDE to RH 5.2 anyways, the added value of Mandrake was
>> nil.
>
>Since then, they have developed their own installer.
A flakey, difficult to use one.
>They have done a
>reasonable amount of work on 586 optimizations.
What have they done that wasn't already made available with others??
>they did a reasonable
>amount of work, with a significant value-add with CUPS.
What does CUPS do that printtool on RH or apsfilter on debian doesn't??
>Their SGI
>optimized version of Apache requires very little tweaking out of the
>box.
Like I really need a SGI optimized version of Apache!!
>They release rpm versions of security fixes usually within 24
>hours after CERT announces a problem.
So?? CERT announces problems weeks after they appear in
BugTraq. Debian responds within 24 hours of that.
>And I have never had a significant problem with *ANY* mandrake distro
>since v. 6.1.
Well I have. And so have many others. I gave up after Mandrake at 7.0.
>There is a reason that Mandrake won best in show at LinuxWorld last
>year.
Eye candy. They know how to make KDE look pretty.
>There is a reason why Mandrake was the #1 selling linux
>distribution in the world in December with 28% marketshare.
28%?? BS!! How about some proof.
And there's a reason Microsoft outsells everyone. Marketing
BS. Mandrake merely one-upped Redhat's version number to steal sales
from them.
>Why bash a distribution based on the say-so of a disingenuous troll?
>
I don't. I've had my own experiences w/ Mandrake. I've been using
Linux since '94. IMHO Mandrake is a well marketed, poorly put together POS.
------------------------------
From: "Les Mikesell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Interesting article
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 20:04:15 GMT
"Giuliano Colla" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > Consumers wouldn't *choose* UNIX... you can easily get UNIX off the net
or
> > in many stores (Linux) and even preloaded.
> >
>
> If you compare the timing of this availability with MS trial
> timing, maybe you'll find out some interesting
> correlation's.
Yes, back before Win95 came out you could buy Dell systems pre-loaded
with a nice version of SysVr4 and I was very upset when they abruptly
abandoned it. In retrospect it is pretty clear that it wasn't by choice.
Les Mikesell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
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