Linux-Advocacy Digest #117, Volume #33 Mon, 26 Mar 01 20:13:04 EST
Contents:
Re: Mircosoft Tax (T. Max Devlin)
Re: I regretfully conclude that Linux is a piece of CRAP. (Matthew Gardiner)
Re: US Navy carrier to adopt Win2k infrastructure (Bob Hauck)
Re: I regretfully conclude that Linux is a piece of CRAP. (Matthew Gardiner)
Re: Kulkis - what a joke. ("Interconnect")
Re: Has Linux anything to offer ? ("Interconnect")
Linus/Transmeta in bed w/Microsoft? ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Kulkis - what a joke. (Steve Chaney)
Re: Linux dying ("Chad Myers")
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.linux.sux,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: Mircosoft Tax
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 00:33:39 GMT
Said Erik Funkenbusch in alt.destroy.microsoft on Mon, 26 Mar 2001
>"chrisv" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>> T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> >Said chrisv in alt.destroy.microsoft on Thu, 22 Mar 2001 13:57:50 GMT;
>> >>What a jerk. You are wrong, buddy. How about labor? Does the price
>> >>of labor decrease as demand for it increases?
>> >
>> >The price decreases as the *production* increases, chrisv, just like any
>> >other commodity, yes.
>>
>> Duhh.... Production can not always be increased as much as we would
>> like, you know? Your statement that "It is an inescapable and
>> irrefutable fact of nature that a free market system forces *anything*
>> to get cheaper when the demand goes up" is WRONG, and no amount is
>> twisting and squirming is going to change that fact.
>
>Exactly. For instance, when demand goes up, but supply stays the same (or
>conversely when supply goes down but demand stays the same),
What on god's green earth makes you believe that supply will stay the
same if demand goes up?
> prices usually
>*INCREASE*, as we see with gas prices, memory prices, LCD prices, etc..
Who ever told you that you understood economics. Apparently, he was
fibbing.
>In actuallity, the only times prices go down when demand goes up is when the
>supply is increased faster than the demand is, and when dealing with volume
>pricing, which we see with Windows, when a particular vendor buys a lot of
>copies, they get a cheaper price.
No, Erik, that isn't the kind of mechanism we're discussing. This isn't
a matter of just randomly second-guessing the laws of economics; you are
seriously *ignorant*, if you believe your confusion casts any doubt on
the point of the matter, which is that in a free market, commodities
decrease in price as production expands. Always.
--
T. Max Devlin
*** The best way to convince another is
to state your case moderately and
accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
------------------------------
From: Matthew Gardiner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: I regretfully conclude that Linux is a piece of CRAP.
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 12:32:11 +1200
Brian Rourke wrote:
> On Mon, 26 Mar 2001 19:32:27 +1200, Matthew Gardiner
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >Brian Rourke wrote:
> >
> >> On Mon, 26 Mar 2001 17:13:04 +1200, root <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >I have done a quick brisk over the net for you posting on the "Mandrake
> >> >Support News Group", I found your comments rather rude, and considering
> >> >you only posted on one news group really shows your enthusiasm to get
> >> >Linux work'in on your computer. Worst still you fail to give the exact
> >> >message etc, or computer specifications when posting your problem. Its
> >> >like telling an engineer on the other side of the world, that your car
> >> >doesn't go, and thats all the info you give him. Also, why are you using
> >> >and ancient copy of Mandrake Linux? if you really had a brain between
> >> >those two ears, you would have grabed the latest version of Mandrake
> >> >Linux (which is 7.2). What you basically did, was grab a copy of Windows
> >> >3.1, then bitch and moan because it doesn't work on your wiz-bang
> >> >computer.
> >>
> >> I'm not sure which message you mean, as I haven't posted anything to
> >> any Mandrake group for some time. I went back to see if I did post
> >> something rude in one of their forums. The only message I found I am
> >> pasting at the bottom of this message. Please tell me what is rude
> >> about it. If you look, you will see that I posted as much information
> >> and specifications as I could at the time about my computer, and I
> >> indicated what I wasn't sure about.
> >
> >Specifications, that is, how much memory? the motherboard chipset (which is
> >has it on the motherboard inside the computer? the size and brand of the hard
> >disk? what ide port is it connected to? The jumper settingson the hard disk?
> >They may sound trivial information to a end user, however, to a guru, they
> >might be able to isolate the problem.
> >
>
> Interesting how you didn't answer my question about what was rude
> about my message. I tried to give the information I had. I was
> trying to find out more. No one at Mandrake asked me any follow-up
> questions.
When a program crashed, when I had Windows (say in the case of Wordperfect), I
would write down EXACTLY was I did, all the messages, what was in the "illegal
Instruction" Message, then notified Corel. That sort of information helps.
>
>
> >>
> >>
> >> I'd be interested in hearing what you think is rude or uninformative
> >> about the message below? It's probably not informative as it would be
> >> if I were more of an expert, but I don't think it matches your
> >> description at all. I posted to their group, to a usenet group and I
> >> sent a message to Macmillan, who was supposed to be providing support
> >> for Mandrake (they didn't, apparently) after I first had trouble.
> >> I've been waiting for certain measures to be taken which weren't
> >> taken, and now I'm trying RedHat. So you see, it's not so simple.
> >>
> >> As for why I had 7.0, it had not been pulled from the shelves as it
> >> should have been. I found this out from Mandrake support staff when
> >> they finally contacted me.
> >
> >Why didn't you goto their website, and study Linux BEFORE changing over to
> >it? its like buying a car, then suddenly realising you don't have a license.
> >Why didn't you look at ALL THE DISTROS? why didn't you try SuSE Linux? or
> >Redhat? My Computer store STILL has Windows 98 on the shelf, even after
> >Windows ME was released, so I don't accept that "it had not been pulled from
> >the shelf" as a valid excuse.
> >
>
> I'm not offering an excuse, just an explanation. If version 7.1 had
> been sitting on the shelf next to 7.0, then I would have bought 7.1,
> obviously. I did consult their website, which IIRC was out of date or
> vague regarding the new release at the time I bought. What's more, I
> said in my original posting that some of my initial problems were
> probably my own fault. Can't you read?
>
> I did go to their website, but they hadn't announced the new version
> yet. Furthermore, I don't have the capacity to download cdrom images
> and burn cds. So I have to rely on what's in the stores. Someone
> from Mandrake apologized to me for it. I looked at 3 different
> distros. Yes, I probably made a mistake picking Mandrake, but I can't
> just keep buying distros until one works out. And few people look at
> every make of car before they buy.
1. you half witt, http://www.linux-mandrake.com/en/ the latest version is
sticking out like a sore thumb.
2. Fair Trading Act and Consumers Guarantee Act allows you to return the software
to the store if it doesn't do what it designed to do.
3. Why did you read some reviews regarding it? there are SO MANY damming reports
about Mandrake Linux, its not funny.
4. Why didn't you post a question on one of the generic Linux support news groups
explaining that you saw a copy of Mandrake Linux 7,, and whether you will
experience any problems with it? Most long time linux users will be more than
happy to suggest the best distro, or what problems you may face when installing
and setting it up.
5. Goto www.drfloppy.co.nz and purchase a copy their, they have great technical
support when needed, and their prices are reasonable (btw, I have NOT affiliation
with them)
>
>
> >>
> >>
> >> If you meant that my posting today was rude, then maybe you are
> >> overlooking that I was describing my reactions to a series of problems
> >> in what are admittedly strong terms, but without singling out
> >> individuals. I was criticizing the practices of certain companies.
> >> Is it now "rude" to criticize corporations, operating systems and
> >> software? Also, my original posting today didn't contain information
> >> about my system because it was less a request for help, which I'd
> >> already done elsewhere, than an attempt to share my frank conclusions
> >> after a frustrating, good-faith (IMO) effort.
> >
> >Is it the end of the world? NO! it is just a forking OS, not the cure for
> >cancer for goodness sake! Simply expecting it to run like windows is short
> >sighted, and ignorant at the most. GET OUT OF THE WINDOWS FRAME OF MIND!
> >when I installed my first copy of Linux (version 5.2), it was when I was 15
> >years old, I new it was going to be nothing like Windows, I followed the
> >guide, and I was able to successfully install it, AT 15! geeze, what the heck
> >are you doing? and this isn't the randy, dandy eye candy versions you're
> >trying to install, I was installing the hard core, CLI version.
>
> This silly "end of the world" hyperbole is yours, not mine. I never
> said anything about it's being more than an OS, and I agree that the
> whole thing is relatively unimportant. Usenet in general is a highly
> informal format. So what?
>
> Where did I say I wanted it to run like Windows? That's exactly what
> I don't want. I do think it should be much easier to install, or at
> the very least, the distributions I've used need to explain the
> process much more carefully and fully? How hard can that be? Some of
> the other, non-blowhard, posters here have managed to say clearly and
> succinctly quite a bit that's not stated anywhere in the manuals I
> have read.
>
> As for your accomplishments at age 15, whoopee. And it's well known,
> even by me, that Linux often installs more easily on older machines.
>
> If you think that I'm the only person who has these problems, then you
> are deluded. Yes, I work in a very non-technical field and no doubt
> know far less than you. FWLIW, I am one of the more computer literate
> people I know (yes, it's a scary thought). If people like me, and the
> many people who know LESS than me, should just stay away from Linux,
> that's fine. If I thought that was true, I'd be sure to pass that
> advice along where I work. I don't think that is true quite yet
> largely because some people responded substantively, if often sharply,
> without just insulting me personally and bragging.
>
> If it's part of the Windows frame of mind to expect clear, thorough,
> accurate and easily accessible statements about compatibility and
> documentation, then maybe that's not such a bad thing? Actually,
> Microsoft provides lousy documentation, and if their online help and
> their support website is admired by some, I suspect that's because of
> a lack of adequate competition. So it's not the "windows frame of
> mind" I'm an example of so much as a throwback to the (very) old days
> when good software often came with two thick notebooks full of info.
I am not boasting, however, (I am guessing you're around 20-25 non-computer
literate), I thought you would have the maturity to research something before
going out and buying something. If I buy a new, upto date copy of Linux, I
check reviews, the kernel version, news groups to see what joe and jane average
thinks of it. What you literately did was buy a car with even seeing it first.
>
>
> >OK, I'll help you, first, return the copy of Mandrake Linux 7.0, and buy a
> >copy of SuSE Linux 7.1 Pro, then, load it up, and go through the process,
> >DONOT LET THE INSTALLER DO EVERYTHING FOR YOU! manually partition it, /boot
> >as an ext2fs, / as reiserfs, and the rest, swap. The thing it that you've
> >partitioned it, however, you have not made a ext2fs or a swap, manually do
> >this through the installer.
> >
>
> You can't return opened software, as you probably know.
Yes you can, I did a couple of days ago. I am not sure what consumer protection
you have in the US, but as soon as a shop owner even thinks of screwing a
customer, the Commerce Commission is down on him/her like a tonne of bricks.
Matthew Gardiner
>
>
> Thanks for the advice. With Mandrake, I haven't been able to get even
> to that point before it fails.
>
> My point can be summed up in one sentence: The valuable information
> you provide here about ext2fs and swap partitions could be explained
> in a short paragraph in a distribution's manual, and any distribution
> that does not so inform users is crap.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Brian
>
> The late spring sunshine flooded,
> like a bursted tepid star,
> the pink Boulevard. The people
> beneath crawled like wounded insects
> of cloth.
>
> Wyndham Lewis
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bob Hauck)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: US Navy carrier to adopt Win2k infrastructure
Reply-To: bobh = haucks dot org
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 00:44:49 GMT
On Sat, 24 Mar 2001 00:25:01 GMT, Chad Myers
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Basically, nobody in the embedded space really wants WinCE or NT.
>
>You have no facts to back this statement up.
Apparently you have no facts to dispute it either. I design and build
embedded systems. You claim to be a network admin. Let the reader
decide who's making things up.
>> > I don't know about this, but Embedded NT and 2K seem to be doing
>> > well.
>>
>> There is no "Embedded 2K" product.
>
>Yes there is. It's not shipping yet, but it is in development
If nobody can buy it, how can it be "doing well"? Once again, Chad puts
his foot in his mouth.
--
-| Bob Hauck
-| To Whom You Are Speaking
-| http://www.haucks.org/
------------------------------
From: Matthew Gardiner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: I regretfully conclude that Linux is a piece of CRAP.
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 12:44:08 +1200
Yet, I ask again, why didn't you research Linux more thoroughly? you are making a
big step from the wizard world of Windows, to the, DIY world of Linux. Why didn't
you look at some other distros such as Redhat? Caldera? Storm? SuSE? read the
reviews? go down to your local computer store and ask some questions about linux to
one of the techodudes or dudettes? most computer stores have atleast one Linux
guru. When I installed Redhat 5.2 (w/ Kernel 2.0.38) the first time, I forked it
up so many times, but I at least had the restraint not to post on COLA about my
wowes. I logged onto Redhat site, and followed all the instructions, and Voila, it
worked, my system was a P75 w/ 8MB RAM, 850MB Hard Disk, and at that time, it was a
bit of a hot-rod.
You would have been better off getting a copy of SuSE Linux 7.1 Pro, and using the
"knowledge portal" SuSE setup to help newbies on how to configure their computer
etc.
Matthew Gardiner
Brian Rourke wrote:
> On 26 Mar 2001 13:56:43 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Terry Porter)
> wrote:
>
> >On Sun, 25 Mar 2001 23:43:28 -0700, Brian Rourke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>On Mon, 26 Mar 2001 17:13:04 +1200, root <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>wrote:
> >>
> >>>I have done a quick brisk over the net for you posting on the "Mandrake
> >>>Support News Group", I found your comments rather rude, and considering
> >>>you only posted on one news group really shows your enthusiasm to get
> >>>Linux work'in on your computer. Worst still you fail to give the exact
> >>>message etc, or computer specifications when posting your problem.
> >
> >>Actually, I'm not that interested in what you think is rude, because
> >>given how rudely insulting you're being to me personally you're
> >>obviously a shameless, self-righteous hypocrite.
> >>
> >
> >>Thanks very much,
> >>
> >>Brian Rourke
> >Mr Rourke, you're a new poster here, and you've had some problems installing
> >Linux, but your skill at insulting long term COLA posters, and knowledgable
> >Linux users is second to none.
> >
>
> Only when responding to insults.
>
> >Insulting kiwiunixman is poor form, he's a long term poster with credible
> >Linux skills, you on the other hand, are new here, so far only your
> >ability to complain is obvious.
> >
> >
>
> You're welcome to your opinion, but note that he not I started out
> with the insults. I know he's very knowledgable and never implied
> otherwise.
>
> >I personaly couldn't care less about your problems, or your perceived lack
> >of 'care' by some posters here. If we want help, we ask nicely, and if we're
> >lucky, someone may help us. COLA is not the place for this, its an *advocacy*
> >group, and we almost never answer technical queries, as there are Linux NG's
> >for just that purpose.
> >
> >Wanna let of some steam, thats cool, but you'll get as good as you give on COLA
>
> I don't think I ever complained about any lack of "care" here, nor did
> I start out asking technical questions. Some people have been very
> kind in offering advice, though.
>
> At first, I was more blowing off steam, as you put it, and I chose to
> post here because I thought describing some of my difficulties might
> be relevant to other newbies or people with experiences similar to
> mine. That's why I chose the advocacy group, where people who are
> looking into Linux will often go to read about it. I realize that
> many people who post here don't care, and of course they're free just
> to skip my posts.
>
> I know that my original post was strongly worded, but I didn't insult
> anyone personally. I guess passions run high about these things,
> which I don't entirely understand. I also don't mind being told off,
> as I think you can see if you read the whole thread. But if someone
> insults me then IMO the best usenet practice is just to respond in
> kind and move on.
>
> Brian
>
> The late spring sunshine flooded,
> like a bursted tepid star,
> the pink Boulevard. The people
> beneath crawled like wounded insects
> of cloth.
>
> Wyndham Lewis
------------------------------
From: "Interconnect" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Kulkis - what a joke.
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 10:54:12 +1000
Chad Everett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> On Sun, 25 Mar 2001, Dark Shadowy Figure <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > [-- Obscene Ranting snipped --]
> >
>
> I think that guy really doesn't like Mr. Kulkis. For someone who places
> such a high value on education, you'd think Mr. "Dark Shadowy Figure
> on Usenet" (wooooh, spooky!) would be a little more eloquent. Maybe he
> will be when he gets into high school. Parental control software
> certainly has its place.
>
Hehe, I agree.
REM: Pot calling the kettle black.
I'm just glad that face to face interaction has not degenerated to what it
is on the web. :(
------------------------------
From: "Interconnect" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Has Linux anything to offer ?
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 10:59:39 +1000
> > Does it boot up and shut down quicker than other operating systems?
>
> Yes (but why is that important?).
When you come from a Windoze world downtime on reboots becomes important.
E.g. Windoze has detected your mouse has moved. Please restart your computer
to continue.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Linus/Transmeta in bed w/Microsoft?
Date: 26 Mar 2001 23:41:37 GMT
see:
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010326/tc/compaq_dc_3.html
What may become of this? OK, Probably nothing.
Maybe MS will someday offer Linus a job for mega-mega bucks - as they say
everyone has there price.
You may be thinking "So what?" - You may be right as Linux is out of
the bag, but do any of you think that if Microsoft really wanted to, I mean
really, really wanted to embrace, extend then marginalize, Linux and send
it
"return-to-sender" back the hacker-hobbyist it could.
Microsoft, after-all, does some $20 bil+ in cash, so if they wanted to
"take one for the team" and even work at an operating loss for a year or two
they, perhaps, could make some Linux-using companies unrefusable offers to the
the MS way.
stubo
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------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Steve Chaney)
Crossposted-To: soc.singles,alt.hackers.malicious
Subject: Re: Kulkis - what a joke.
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 01:07:56 GMT
On Mon, 26 Mar 2001 02:27:46 -0500, "Aaron R. Kulkis"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Dark Shadowy Figure on Usenet wrote:
>>
>> What a dork. Excuse maker extraordinare. "Hey guys, guess what, I'm an
>> engineer! Of course, I don't have a degree, but, uh, I only needed 2
>> 1/2 credits to receive my degree, so I just said fuck it." Man, what a
>> fucking idiot. Excuses, excuses. Now we're hearing about how he's
>> making a six figure salary, so basically, it's not worth his time going
>> back to get his degree.
>>
>> *Snicker* That's what is so fucking wrong with this world. Everyone
>> thinks being wealthy means making lots of $$$. Well, hey dickwad
>> Kulkis, I've got some news for ya, pal. I'd rather be TRULY wealthy.
>> By this, I mean wealthy in terms of health, intelligence, and making
>> enough money to pay for all the things I need. You obviously meet ONE
>> of the requirements above.
>>
>> You are about one of the lowest IQ pieces of shit I have ever run
>> across. Basically, you lied about the browser you are using. Idiot.
>> You were challenged to change the freaking OS ID string, and you
>> presented absolutely no proof that the OS ID string in your headers is a
>> fake. Therefore, you ARE running Windows. Hey, I basically abhor
>> Windows, yet I will freely admit that I run it on occasion. I AM
>> running Windows, but I do not advocate the shit. At least I can own up
>> to the fact that I run it on occasion, yet you cannot.
>
>From 5:14 PM, EST, to 5:16 PM, EST, today, I read, and composed
>coherent responses to a little more than 130 postings in this
>newsgroup (comp.os.linux.advocacy).
>
>Now, either I am either *NOT* smart enough to both read AND type
>out responses that quickly....
>
>***OR****
>
>I am intelligent enough to accomplish such a task
>
>***OR****
>
>I'm using .... some other news reader and/or some other platform.
**OR** you're ready to usurp Ramalane as emperor of
alt.hackers.malicious.
-- Steve
===============================
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (remove the "-" to email me)
This site is just TOO COOL for a counter! http://www.self-acceptance.org
"As long as an enemy is judged solely by his
appearance, his victory is assured." - Outer Limits
STOP SMOKING NOW!!! ASK ME HOW!!! http://www.geocities.com/brenduh52/
The alt.bonehead.jim-dutton FAQ @ http://www.best.com/~paladin/jjd-faq.shtml
Ramalamer, 31337 h4x0r & MS Outlook user: http://www.best.com/~paladin/ramalane.shtml
"Let 'em eat eep" - Lady Veteran
------------------------------
From: "Chad Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux dying
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 00:54:12 GMT
"Chad Everett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> On Mon, 26 Mar 2001, Chad Myers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >"Nick Condon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> >>
> >> MS wants out of the operating system business, hence we see .NET.
> >
> >No, MS wants to make the OS irrelevant. They want the decision
> >in buying an OS not really matter. That way, people will by
> >Windows just because it runs .NET better, but their main motivation
> >will be in buying the best .NET Server for their services.
> >
> >
>
> Of course, none of Microsoft's HailStorm and .NET strategies have anything
> at all to do with providing users with better products or computing power
> and use, it's all about getting more control to Microsoft.
WATCH OUT! HERE COME THE BLACK HELIOCOPTERS!
> Will .NET benefit users: no.
Let's see, getting real time flight information, being able to notify
my loved ones 30 minutes before I land so that they can come pick me up,
being instant messaged when I'm outbid on an auction, getting real-time
customer support chat with an American Express customer support
representative...
nah, that doesn't benefit the consumers at all!
-c
------------------------------
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