Linux-Advocacy Digest #313, Volume #33 Tue, 3 Apr 01 08:13:06 EDT
Contents:
Re: What is user friendly? ("Aaron R. Kulkis")
Re: Baseball ("Aaron R. Kulkis")
Re: Why does Open Source exist, and what way is it developing? ("Andy Walker")
Re: AMD is to Intel as "What OS" is to Windows? ("Aaron R. Kulkis")
Re: Windows "speed" ("Ayende Rahien")
Re: Things Linux can't do! ("Ayende Rahien")
Re: OT: Treason (was Re: Communism) ("billh")
Re: OT: Treason (was Re: Communism) ("billh")
Re: Is StarOffice 5.2 "compatible" w/MS Office 97/2000? (Joerg Schilling)
Re: Is StarOffice 5.2 "compatible" w/MS Office 97/2000? (Joerg Schilling)
Re: Communism, Communist propagandists in the US...still..to this day. (Gunner ©)
Re: Communism, Communist propagandists in the US...still..to this day. (Gunner ©)
Re: OT: Treason (was Re: Communism) (Roberto Alsina)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: What is user friendly?
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 07:14:54 -0400
GreyCloud wrote:
>
> The Ghost In The Machine wrote:
> >
> > In comp.os.linux.advocacy, GreyCloud
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote
> > on Sun, 01 Apr 2001 01:56:48 -0800
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > >The Ghost In The Machine wrote:
> > >>
> > >> soc.singles removed from followups. (Um....insert your own joke regarding
> > >> weird crossposts here, folks. :-) )
> > >>
> > >> In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Jan Johanson
> > >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >> wrote
> > >> on 24 Mar 2001 16:13:02 -0600
> > >> <3abd1b3f$0$28213$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > >> >
> > >> >"Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > >> >news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > >> >
> > >> >> Which gets back to my main point:
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Mafia$oft sticks you with code compiled for an 80486, and nothing
> > >> >> better....even if you're running a Pentium III.
> > >> >
> > >> >Wrong. There is Pentium specific code in NT as well as Windows 2000. There
> > >> >are also processor specific speed ups for the PII and PIII OP sets, as well
> > >> >as specific speedups for MMS, SSE and SSEII.
> > >> >
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Linux installs an 80386 kernal and apps BUT, it lets you re-make the
> > >> >kernal
> > >> >> and apps, so that you are using executable code that was optimized for
> > >> >> your CPU.
> > >> >
> > >> >So, can't run linux on a 286 without a recompile eh?
> > >>
> > >> Can't run Linux on a 286 at all; it requires a flat address space.
> > >> At least, last time I checked. :-) Someone might have snuck in some
> > >> detection code deep in the kernel, but it would definitely require
> > >> a recompile with an intelligent compiler that can translate the
> > >> flat address space into segment:paragraph form. (And that's assuming
> > >> no code mucks with the translation tables and/or card registers in an
> > >> incompatible fashion within the drivers or modules during something
> > >> like DMA setup. Oy vey....)
> > >>
> > >> No, g++ isn't quite that intelligent, at least as far as I've
> > >> looked at it. :-)
> > >>
> > >
> > >More intelligent than VC++6.0. I have the MSDN CD-rom set. VC has
> > >trouble with multiple inheritance and the MSDN admits it by showing
> > >possible work-arounds. g++ seems to handle multiple inheritance quite
> > >well. As time goes on g++ will improve.
> >
> > Which is funny because ATL uses multiple inheritance (and templates)
> > pretty heavily. Take a look at VC++ wizard-generated code sometime. :-)
> >
> > >
> > >> Not sure if this is a bug or a feature or merely a reflection of the
> > >> sad legacy of backward compatibility we've been saddled with
> > >> because of the monopolistic tendencies of the software market -- said
> > >> tendencies being created either by ourselves (because we like it that
> > >> way?), or by a certain gigantic software vender that even now is still
> > >> trying to dominate the market, explaining that it's doing so
> > >> "for the sake of the naive user".
> > >>
> > >> Also, because Intel was first, Motorola second. The 68000 series
> > >> was superior in terms of register usage and addressing capability.
> > >>
> > >
> > >Using the "register" specification in a C program is far more useful on
> > >processors with orthogonal register usage than on Intel processors.
> > >Wish I could afford better, but all I can do now is get used VAXens.
> >
> > Now there was a nice machine language. None of this weird r/m stuff
> > or oddball bitmasking for different ops; one just has a byte opcode
> > and a series of operands, which could be immediate, memory, PIC,
> > register, offset(register), indexed (which even took into account
> > the size of the operand)...compilers would be almost trivial.
> >
> > There was complete orthogonality of 12 of its 16 registers (R0 was
> > dedicated to returns, but it could also be used), R12 = FP, R13 = AP,
> > R14 = SP, R15 = PC, if memory serves; in a pinch, one could probably
> > use AP as a scratch register, too). If one wanted to, one could
> > also use the very powerful macro assembler. I forget the specifics
> > of floating point (I think there was a separate set of registers for that),
> > but it was also well supported, with the usual instructions for
> > converting ints to floats/doubles, etc.
> >
> > Of course, the VAX does disallow certain instruction types; moving
> > to an immediate operand or jumping to a register will most likely
> > result in an illegal instruction exception of some sort
> > (I forget the details, now). :-)
> >
> > It also had a well-engineered argument/stack frame, which everyone was
> > expected to follow (and which was supported by CALLS, CALLG,
> > and various PUSHes and POPs).
> >
> > VMS wasn't too bad, athough it tried to do too much; the one thing
> > I miss was the asynchronous service trap, which basically got called
> > when I/O completed. It also had some funny notions regarding
> > redirect ("ASSIGN SYS$INPUT filename" [*], as opposed to the simple "<").
> > But it was robust and well-documented, complete with built-in HELP
> > with a tree of topics. It felt like a very very heavy OS at the time,
> > but the VAXes I used at my employment had all of 5 and 8 megabytes
> > which means that compared to Win2k, it was a virtual featherweight!
> >
> > Unfortunately, as usual, we got the schlock x86 architecture which
> > has got to have the weirdest set of registers I've seen in a micro,
> > barring such oddballities as the 6502 (anyone else remember (22,X)
> > and (22),Y indirect addressing modes? :-) ).
> >
> > At least the 386+ is usable now. :-)
> >
> > [rest snipped]
> >
> > [*] I might have the arguments reversed. There was also an option on
> > the DCL ASSIGN command that could indicate whether the assignment
> > was for the duration of the process, or merely for the next image
> > (VMS differentiated between the two). However, I forget the
> > specific flag.
> >
>
> In DCL to make a variable local it was $ var1 := whatever...
> Global it was $ var2 :== whatever...
Sounds like a bug breeding factory.
>
> I'm still waiting on the new License purchase (Hobbyist) for VMS 7.2
> The CDs include Vax Fortran, Vax Basic, Cobol, C, Pascal for $40.
>
> > --
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- insert random misquote here
> > EAC code #191 56d:08h:46m actually running Linux.
> > Microsoft. When it absolutely, positively has to act weird.
>
> --
> V
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Engineer
DNRC Minister of all I survey
ICQ # 3056642
K: Truth in advertising:
Left Wing Extremists Charles Schumer and Donna Shelala,
Black Seperatist Anti-Semite Louis Farrakan,
Special Interest Sierra Club,
Anarchist Members of the ACLU
Left Wing Corporate Extremist Ted Turner
The Drunken Woman Killer Ted Kennedy
Grass Roots Pro-Gun movement,
J: Other knee_jerk reactionaries: billh, david casey, redc1c4,
The retarded sisters: Raunchy (rauni) and Anencephielle (Enielle),
also known as old hags who've hit the wall....
I: Loren Petrich's 2-week stubborn refusal to respond to the
challenge to describe even one philosophical difference
between himself and the communists demonstrates that, in fact,
Loren Petrich is a COMMUNIST ***hole
H: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
you are lazy, stupid people"
G: Knackos...you're a retard.
F: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
E: Jet is not worthy of the time to compose a response until
her behavior improves.
D: Jet Silverman now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
...despite (C) above.
C: Jet Silverman claims to have killfiled me.
B: Jet Silverman plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a
method of sidetracking discussions which are headed in a
direction that she doesn't like.
A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
------------------------------
From: "Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Baseball
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 07:18:02 -0400
Matthew Gardiner wrote:
>
> Mind you, Aussie rules is quite good too. When I was in Aussie, I went to several
>matches.
>
Austrailian rules football is the best....except for hockey.
I watched a LOT of games when I was in college. [I had this big two-room
double in the dorm. My roomie went off to co-op...and I had the whole place
to myself 2nd semester that year.
> Matthew Gardiner
>
> Matthew Gardiner wrote:
>
> > Ever played rugby? Ever been in the position of having a 140KG Somoan charging
>towards you
> > (and you're only 85KG), and being hammered when trying to tackle the person? I
>also find
> > it rather amazing how little Septic Tanks know about the world outside the US?
>Did you
> > know we have Televisions, Tree's, cars, computers, I know, its probably has come
>as quite a
> > big shock to you.
> >
> > Matthew Gardiner
> >
> > "T. Max Devlin" wrote:
> >
> > > Said Matthew Gardiner in alt.destroy.microsoft on Tue, 03 Apr 2001
> > > >Cricket is not gay, NOW Gridiron, that is really gay, wtf is it with pads and
>shit? and
> > > >a 15'er after each tackle for christs. I've seen more action from a Microsoft
> > > >programmer than what happens on the field in a game of Gridiron.
> > >
> > > They like to think its a game of strategy.
> > >
> > > Do you think there's more strategy in cricket then in baseball? I've
> > > watched both, but I know the rules and strategy to baseball, having
> > > grown up American. They're both pretty boring. I'm interested in
> > > learning a bit of some of the strategy. It seems a really wacked game
> > > from the brief descriptions I've heard.
> > >
> > > But "gridiron" ('American football') is about *mass*, not *flexibility*,
> > > that's wtf with the pads and shit. Rugby (isn't that what you guys call
> > > your version of gridiron?) is for pansies, in comparison. You might as
> > > well play soccer.
> > >
> > > --
> > > T. Max Devlin
> > > *** The best way to convince another is
> > > to state your case moderately and
> > > accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Engineer
DNRC Minister of all I survey
ICQ # 3056642
K: Truth in advertising:
Left Wing Extremists Charles Schumer and Donna Shelala,
Black Seperatist Anti-Semite Louis Farrakan,
Special Interest Sierra Club,
Anarchist Members of the ACLU
Left Wing Corporate Extremist Ted Turner
The Drunken Woman Killer Ted Kennedy
Grass Roots Pro-Gun movement,
J: Other knee_jerk reactionaries: billh, david casey, redc1c4,
The retarded sisters: Raunchy (rauni) and Anencephielle (Enielle),
also known as old hags who've hit the wall....
I: Loren Petrich's 2-week stubborn refusal to respond to the
challenge to describe even one philosophical difference
between himself and the communists demonstrates that, in fact,
Loren Petrich is a COMMUNIST ***hole
H: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
you are lazy, stupid people"
G: Knackos...you're a retard.
F: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
E: Jet is not worthy of the time to compose a response until
her behavior improves.
D: Jet Silverman now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
...despite (C) above.
C: Jet Silverman claims to have killfiled me.
B: Jet Silverman plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a
method of sidetracking discussions which are headed in a
direction that she doesn't like.
A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
------------------------------
From: "Andy Walker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Why does Open Source exist, and what way is it developing?
Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 12:18:10 -0000
Karel Jansens wrote in message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
>Why is this important? Mutations are random and have nothing to do with
>the environment (not strictly true, but I don't think any species will
>ever try to adapt to the background cosmic radiation), whereas who gets
>to mate with who is _definitely_ dependent on the environment.
Mutations are the singular most important part of evolution. Without it
there would be no change from the most basic life forms that first existed
on this planet.
Without mutations there would be no diversity of life at all. Breeding is
really just the mechanism with which mutations get tested. In the vast
majority of cases the mutations fail miserably, but very occasionally the
extra finger or fin is a success and the species finds itself better at
escaping its predator or finding its food.
Future breeding then refines the mutation through to its new state.
------------------------------
From: "Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: AMD is to Intel as "What OS" is to Windows?
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 07:19:52 -0400
GreyCloud wrote:
>
> John Lockwood wrote:
> >
> > >Any implementation of the "Win32" [sic -- LOSE32] API is inherently unstable
> > >due to poor design.
> >
> > Incorrect. I coded to Win32 for many years, and though complex and at
> > times obtuse, it actually was quite stable.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > John
>
> I've coded with VC++6.0 and also have the MASM6.11. The code generated
> works ok... its the O/S that isn't ok... meaning the Win9x series...
> can't say a thing about NT.
> But I do notice a huge performance increase using MASM. These tight
> programs snap-up very fast compared to the C++ versions and run a lot
> faster. I think that MS should pay more attention to cleaning up their
> development tools.
No..there is every incentive to make the tools as bloated as possible,
so that more machines will be purchased (to get a more powerful CPU
so as to keep up with the code bloat), thus providing more license fees.
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Engineer
DNRC Minister of all I survey
ICQ # 3056642
K: Truth in advertising:
Left Wing Extremists Charles Schumer and Donna Shelala,
Black Seperatist Anti-Semite Louis Farrakan,
Special Interest Sierra Club,
Anarchist Members of the ACLU
Left Wing Corporate Extremist Ted Turner
The Drunken Woman Killer Ted Kennedy
Grass Roots Pro-Gun movement,
J: Other knee_jerk reactionaries: billh, david casey, redc1c4,
The retarded sisters: Raunchy (rauni) and Anencephielle (Enielle),
also known as old hags who've hit the wall....
I: Loren Petrich's 2-week stubborn refusal to respond to the
challenge to describe even one philosophical difference
between himself and the communists demonstrates that, in fact,
Loren Petrich is a COMMUNIST ***hole
H: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
you are lazy, stupid people"
G: Knackos...you're a retard.
F: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
E: Jet is not worthy of the time to compose a response until
her behavior improves.
D: Jet Silverman now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
...despite (C) above.
C: Jet Silverman claims to have killfiled me.
B: Jet Silverman plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a
method of sidetracking discussions which are headed in a
direction that she doesn't like.
A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
------------------------------
From: "Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windows "speed"
Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 13:18:07 +0200
You are bashing Windows, right?
At least do so *intelegently*!
"." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:%dcy6.264$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > If that's not a reason to switch to another platform (and pronto), I
> don't
> > > know what is.
> >
> > Now, why did you have to wait for me to tell you about it?
> > You *see* what I'm complaining about.
>
> Because I'm not interested enough in obtaining 'fixes' and 'upgrades' from
> MS to stay on top of all this shit? I'm not a sysadmin anymore, I'm not
> going to spend my time reading security alerts and the like all the time.
> What I will do is read a posted article and offer my opinion to the
> newsgroup.
>
> So no, I don't see what you're complaining about. If you're complaining
> that
> we only bitch when you post something, stop posting links and see if the
> bitching
> dies away. I believe you'll find it wont stop, because the products are
> still
> primarily shite, and the company is still evil. The bitching is just a
> symptom.
>
> Posting more links to show that Windows xx is shite for whatever latest
> reason
> I'll continue to leave up to other people, and have a giggle to myself
when
> I
> read them.
>
>
> But perhaps I've missed the point... what is it you're complaining about?
>
>
>
------------------------------
From: "Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Things Linux can't do!
Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 13:19:16 +0200
"Donovan Rebbechi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> On Tue, 03 Apr 2001 04:17:30 GMT, Chad Myers wrote:
> >
> >"Toby A Inkster Esq" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> >news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >> In our last episode, Andy Walker wrote:
> >>
> >> :Linux can't crash at random every five minutes.
> >>
> >> It can is you write your own "crash daemon" and run it under root.
> >
> >Isn't that what X is? Only, you don't have to run it as root!
>
> X runs as root. As for "crash daemon", the only "crashes" I get are
> during power outages.
>
> But you wouldn't know, because you don't use Linux.
It's not exactly running as root, but it has privileged access to hardware.
------------------------------
From: "billh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft,us.military.army,soc.singles
Subject: Re: OT: Treason (was Re: Communism)
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 11:33:47 GMT
"Aaron R. Kulkis"
> > Dishorable act no less. Big enough to land you in court.
>
> Years before I was in the army.
And this makes it okay? It's a character flaw.
------------------------------
From: "billh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft,us.military.army,soc.singles
Subject: Re: OT: Treason (was Re: Communism)
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 11:35:37 GMT
"Aaron R. Kulkis"
> Bill's a super-hero officer who has accomplished:
> nothing.
Yet I achieved a higher enlisted rank than you, and you've had twelve years
Makes you less than nothing..
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Joerg Schilling)
Crossposted-To: comp.unix.advocacy,alt.solaris.x86,comp.unix.solaris
Subject: Re: Is StarOffice 5.2 "compatible" w/MS Office 97/2000?
Date: 3 Apr 2001 11:38:56 GMT
In article <9abepu$2vl$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Logan Shaw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Pete Mullins <pmullin@> wrote:
>>Since everyone uses Word, this can usually be taken for granted.
>
>No, it can't. Some people who can't be assumed to use Word:
...
> * people who prefer some other word processor.
>
> * people who use platforms for which Word isn't available (such as
> HP-UX, Tru64, AIX, Solaris, Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, BeOS,
> or PalmOS).
or:
DG-UX, NextSteP, BSDi, SCO-openserver/unixware, IRIX, Sony NewsOS
....
> * people who are blind.
>
>Personally, when I receive a Word attachment, I first wonder why the
>sender wants to make software purchasing decisions for me. Then, if
>it's really important, I might try to convert it. Otherwise, I just
>delete it.
I only read word attachments if I rely on them. So from checking my last
5 years it have only been programming manuals for CD-writers ;-)
--
EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (uni) If you don't have iso-8859-1
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) chars I am J"org Schilling
URL: http://www.fokus.gmd.de/usr/schilling ftp://ftp.fokus.gmd.de/pub/unix
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Joerg Schilling)
Crossposted-To: comp.unix.advocacy,alt.solaris.x86,comp.unix.solaris
Subject: Re: Is StarOffice 5.2 "compatible" w/MS Office 97/2000?
Date: 3 Apr 2001 11:40:20 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Rich Teer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>On 2 Apr 2001, Logan Shaw wrote:
>
>> Personally, when I receive a Word attachment, I first wonder why the
>> sender wants to make software purchasing decisions for me. Then, if
>> it's really important, I might try to convert it. Otherwise, I just
>> delete it.
>
>I have a similar philosophy, except for the last part: if someone sends
>me a Word document, I *KNOW* it isn't important, so I delete it. If it
>was important, the sender would've used a format that anyone can read.
>Ditto, to a degree, with HTML email.
Well some WORD documents are important - unfortunately ....
HTML is definitely _always_ junk mail and gets deleted before read.
--
EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (uni) If you don't have iso-8859-1
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) chars I am J"org Schilling
URL: http://www.fokus.gmd.de/usr/schilling ftp://ftp.fokus.gmd.de/pub/unix
------------------------------
From: Gunner © <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
misc.survivalism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,soc.singles,alt.society.liberalism,talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: Communism, Communist propagandists in the US...still..to this day.
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 04:41:29 -0700
On Mon, 2 Apr 2001 17:47:01 -0800, "Dana" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>>
>> Gunner
>
>It is worse than that. He is supposed to be a university professor.
>>
That I could believe. Most soft science proffs I met over the years were
ivory tower leftist scum who simply couldn't pour piss out of a boot
with instructions on the heel.
Them that can.. do.
Them that can't, teach
Them that can't do anything, become Democrat/Liberal politicians
--
"Confronting Liberals with the facts of reality is very much akin to
clubbing baby seals. It gets boring after a while, but because Liberals are
so stupid it is easy work." Steven M. Barry
------------------------------
From: Gunner © <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
misc.survivalism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,soc.singles,alt.society.liberalism,talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: Communism, Communist propagandists in the US...still..to this day.
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 04:41:30 -0700
On 02 Apr 2001 23:49:16 GMT, "Alex Chaihorsky"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Erb,
>
>You have to be honest. We know you have problems with honesty.
>But "Is" is "Is".
>In the middle of the discussion you suddenly remembered that the original
>meaning of Liberalism, which has nothing to do with contemporary Liberalism.
>Smart move. But may be it is me, who is dishonest here? let the readers
>decide.
>As you know, words, do not really mean anything on its own. Like many words
>that describe groups and events on the political landscape, "Liberalism"
>means different things at different times.
>Liberalism in its original 18th century British form sought individual
>liberties and was opposed to the growing power of the governments. The
>American Constitution is the crescendo of Western Liberalism ideology.
>Contemporary liberalism has nothing to do with it. Actually, it is almost
>the exact opposite: - a collectivist ideology. But do not take my word for
>it.
>The Encyclopedia Britannica (1998 edition) defines the relation between the
>two the best:
> "The expansion of government power and responsibility sought by liberals
>today is clearly opposed to the contraction of government power and
>responsibility sought by liberals yesterday."
>Please, everyone, re-read this passage again! Da ist der Hund begraben!
>
>Two most famous founders of liberalism, John Locke (1632-1704), the
>philosopher of individual liberty and Adam Smith (1723?-1790), the author of
>classical liberal laissez-faire economic theory are spinning in their graves
>"listening" to what became of their ideology today.
>In modern time, it was Margaret Thatcher, who represented classic liberalism
>most eloquently. She, President Ronald Reagan and to some extent Secretary
>General Gorbachev, were the most recent champions of the liberal cause in
>its original form. I bow in deep respect to these noble giants of
>liberalism, to who we owe our recent victories over the monster of the world
>Communism.
>That has nothing to do with socialists and communists that have stolen the
>word (as they always do, because they have to distance themselves from the
>horrors of their original ideology).
>So, Dana is right, and if you claim that Liberal Democracy definition today
>has retain the meaning of Liberalism of the 18th century, you have to become
>small government, no free lunch, individualist, which you are obviously NOT.
>
>But we would like you to be that. What would it take for you to abandon
>your socialist agenda? Yet another tens of millions of tortured and killed
>by Communist NKVD-KGB? More artificial hunger like in 1920-ies in Ukraine
>that caused the biggest outbreak of documented cannibalism known to men?More
>dead bodies than you already had in Cambodia?
>I remember how "Comrade Pol Pot" was marching down the hall of the Palace of
>Communism in Moscow during XXIV World Communist Congress. How General
>Secretary Of the Communist Party of USA - Guss Hall (we called him "Gas
>Hall") was standing next to him, apploading. Cambodia was in the middle of
>the its carnage at the time, but American Communists an Socialist were
>there, in Moscow, applauding the butcher.
>You hope that we forgot. No, Erb. Americans forgot, kind souls that they
>are, we didn't.
>
>Alex Chaihorsky
>Reno, NV
>
Sbazabo!
Gunner
>
>"Scott Erb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>>
>>
>> Dana wrote:
>> >
>> > No Erb, you are the one that is wrong. We are a constitutional republic.
>We
>> > are not a liberal democracy, that form of socialism
>>
>> No, you're wrong. Liberal Democracy means a Democratic Republic based
>> on liberal principles. Ideological liberalism is a belief in limited
>> government and a claim that humans have the inherent right of life,
>> liberty and property, based on the work of among others, John Locke.
>> Liberalism is an ideological opponent of socialism.
>>
>> Classical liberalism saw a very, very limited government (Milton
>> Friedman considers himself a classical liberal), "new" liberalism
>> associated with developments in Britain and thinkers like John Stuart
>> Mill argues that to have real liberty and equal opportunity the state
>> must institute some kind of social welfare programs. Both are at base
>> ideologically liberal, socialism is something else.
>>
>> > is found in Europe in
>> > countries like Germany. And our federalism is not Germany's >federalism.
>>
>> Germany in some ways has a stronger federalism than ours, their states
>> choose who serves in their upper house, much like the US Senate was
>> chosen before direct popular vote to the Senate was ratified.
>>
>> Dana, your ignorance of the basics here shows that perhaps you need to
>> do some reading on this. I'll later on post a set of books you could
>> start with; at this point, you are in over your head.
>
--
"Confronting Liberals with the facts of reality is very much akin to
clubbing baby seals. It gets boring after a while, but because Liberals are
so stupid it is easy work." Steven M. Barry
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Roberto Alsina)
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft,us.military.army,soc.singles
Subject: Re: OT: Treason (was Re: Communism)
Date: 3 Apr 2001 11:46:07 GMT
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Sun, 01 Apr 2001 01:14:16 -0500, Aaron R. Kulkis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Roger Perkins wrote:
>>
>> Don't confuse the little dweeb. He wants to set up a dictatorship in this
>> country along with Hdlskdjfloser. He sees "anti-government" as
>> "anti-whateverI want".
>
>If I'm so "anti-government", porker, then why am I *IN* the government.
You seem to enjoy taking trips paid by taxpayers to foreign countries
where you can use shiny toys to kill people.
>Betcha don't have an answer for that. do you....
There's an answer to everything.
--
Roberto Alsina
------------------------------
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