Linux-Advocacy Digest #784, Volume #33 Sun, 22 Apr 01 16:13:03 EDT
Contents:
Re: Has Linux anything to offer ? (GreyCloud)
Re: Communism, Communist propagandists in the US...still..to this day. (Gunner©)
Re: What's the point (Karel Jansens)
Re: Why Linux Is no threat to Windows domination of the desktop (Karel Jansens)
Re: bank switches from using NT 4 (Karel Jansens)
Re: Windows 2000 Rocks! (Karel Jansens)
Re: OT: Treason (was Re: Communism) (Ace Agincourt)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: GreyCloud <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Has Linux anything to offer ?
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 12:11:38 -0700
Doug Patterson wrote:
>
> This is not a flame, just an expression of frustration. Please take it as
> such. You do provide sueful information, but why should that info be so
> obscure?
>
> "webgiant " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > On Thu, 12 Apr 2001 01:12:10 GMT, "Doug Patterson"
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > >I just picked up RedHat7 and am trying my best to like it. I really want
> it
> > >to work, but a lot of these armuments are true....
> > >
> > >"GreyCloud" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > >news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > >> "roger$@a" wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Rex says...
> > >> >
> > >> > > If you are a student who
> > >> > >would like to learn the principles of UNIX, if you are the secretary
> > >> > >of a non-profit and want
> > >> > >to put up a web-site, or if you just want to chat and e-mail, Linux
> > >> > >has some
> > >> > >really great tools to do this.
> > >> > >
> > >> >
> > >> > The problem is that on Linux, there is no consistant and coherant way
> > >> > with how applications work. One can't cut/paste from one app to
> > >> > another like on windows. Application quality in general are less of
> > >> > those that exist on widnows.
> > >> >
> > >> > Let take some examples:
> > >> >
> > >> > 1. Using IE 6.0 beta, If I am on a web page, and do 'save', IE is
> > >> > smart enough not only to save the HTML page itself, but also to
> > >> > create a subdirectory with all the gif files on that page. This means
> > >> > when one views the locally saved HTML page later on, it comes up with
> > >> > all the images intact on it. There is nothing like this on Linux.
> > >
> > >Let's talk about browsers. NetScape 4.7X renders text terribly on my
> setup.
> > >Opera renders much better, but doesn't support Java, which NetScape does.
> I
> > >haven't found a good browser for Linux that supports Java. If there is
> one,
> > >somebody please let me know!
> > >
> > >> > 2. On windows, I can drag an image from my Visio document to my word
> > >> > document and have it show up there. There is nothing like this on
> linux.
> > >
> > >Amen.
> >
> > Funny, I can drag between applications in StarOffice.
> StarOffice is ONE application. Of course it works within itself.
> >
> > [snip!]
> >
> > >> > 5. On linux, it is still very hard to get a system working using
> > >> > anti-aliased fonts, without more user hacks and configurations. On
> > >> > windows, it comes build in and the user has to do nothing more.
> > >
> > >I still can't figure out how to install any fonts beyond what was
> installed
> > >with the OS. When I tried, the font name showed up in the app
> (StarOffice,
> > >for example), but displayed only a some system font I couldn't even
> resize.
> > >I found conflicting sets of instructions on how to install fonts, all of
> > >them very complex. With Windows I can drag TTF files into the font folder
> > >and everything works.
> >
> > >> > 6. Printing on Linux is broke. On widnows, setting up a printer
> requires
> > >> > no hacks as on linux. It just works.
> > >>
> > >> Printing is easy. I find that my Epson printer works better under
> linux
> > >> than it ever has under windows. Why did Epson replace windows' print
> > >> manager with their own?
> > >> Because the windows print manager does not respond quickly or none at
> > >> all. Try like 5 to 10 minutes to stop a print job. (Win9x series)
> > >
> > >RedHat doesn't even come with a driver for my Panasonic KXP-1123 dot
> matrix!
> > >Good grief. How basic can you get? It sook some experimentation to find a
> > >"close enough" driver for my HP DJ810c (works well), but NOTHING works
> with
> > >the Panasonic.
> >
> > What, you've got some buggy version of Linux that doesn't have an
> > EPSON driver?
> The lack of a driver is not a bug, it is an omission.
> >
> > I never had a driver in DOS for MY Panasonic KXP-1092, I just used the
> > EPSON driver and had a good time!
> What does DOS have to do with it?
> >
> > >An still, no USB printing!
> >
> > While USB is in Kernel 2.4, why would you want to use buggy USB
> > printing?
> The typical Linux response for a feature they don't impliment completely:
> "Why would you want to do that?" Because my LPT has the Panasonic on it! The
> HP is on USB. If it is buggy, they should fix it! It works in BeOS and
> Windows. What is the excuse for Linux?
> >
> > >> > 7. On Linux, there are many different desktop environments, each work
> > >> > differently. Applications written for one, might not work as expected
> > >> > on another. On windows, there is one way to do it, making developer
> life
> > >> > much simpler and users are familiar with how GUI applications are
> > >> > expected to behave.
> > >>
> > >> I've never had a problem with different window managers. I'm using
> Motif
> > >> 1.4 and have easily compiled games from other Linux distros without any
> > >> problems. The underlying core are the X-libs.
> > >
> > >Pick one and stick with it. Gnome is pretty good, if it isn't crashing.
> KDE
> > >is worthless;
> >
> > I disagree with the KDE suggestion, even though I usually go with the
> > Enlightenment GNOME desktop when I have the system resources.
> I spoke too rashly. KDE is the more mature and more stable product, and it
> actually has a Find function that works, unlike Gnome's. But the help files
> assume way too much knowledge on the user's part.
> >
> > >how can an average user figure out the ppp configuration
> > >porgram? Who the heck knows what PAP is? The help system is totally
> > >worthless...unless you are experienced with Linux. For a newbie like me
> > >there is no mercy.
> >
> > KPPP is amazingly easy to use. Hint: if you don't know what it is,
> > and Linux doesn't ask you to put a value in it, Don't Mess With It,
> > and your system will work fine. Another hint: your ISP knows what PAP
> > is, and whether or not they use it. Final hint: if your ISP has such
> > awful tech support that they don't know how to do a Linux connection,
> > DROP THEM LIKE A HOT BRICK. Largely because they obviously have the
> > intelligence of a hot brick.
> >
> Kppp is a pain. After two weeks of trying and looking for help in various
> places, it still responds with "pppd daemon died suddenly" (or was it
> "unexpectedly"?). Using the debug window gives the very helpful advice,
> "Sorry, can't help you here." Gee, thanks. The Red Hat Dialer has NO
> problems.
> > [snip!]
> >
> > >> > >Some people like it because they like having the power and stability
> > >> > >of a UNIX system.
> > >> >
> > >> > win2k is VERY stable. The stability claim is getting too old now.
> > >> > need to find a new one.
> > >>
> > >> Tell that to the space crew up above. NT crashed quite often. Only
> the
> > >> Russians know what their laptop is running and it didn't crash.
> > >
> > >I hardly ever have problems with Win98SE or NT4Sp6.
> >
> > I have regular problems with Win98, and I can't use Win98SE because
> > Micro$oft left out some important networking drivers required for
> > cable modems.
> That doesn't make any sense. I have installed over 200 cable modems as a
> contractor. The cable company provides the modems, NICs and software (or at
> least specifies them). Everything that Windows needs, it has. The cable
> company provides what's left. It works as designed. There are thousands and
> thousands of cable modem-equipped PCs out there running Win98SE.
> >
> > >RedHat has been a true pain. Gnome locked up so tight that Linux refused
> > >to shut down. I had to pull the plug.
> >
> > Are you booting straight into the GUI? If so, hit Ctrl-Alt-F7 to exit
> > X, then--once you're in console (text-only) mode, hit Alt-F2 to open a
> > new session, login as root, and type
> >
> > ps aux
> >
> > Look for a process name (off on the far right column) with the name of
> > your window manager. Look to the left for the process number.
> >
> > Type "kill ####" where the number is the process number.
> >
> Sure. Why do in one step what I can do in four? Why should it be simple when
> I can complicate it? I don't doubt it works, but good grief. That
> information is very hard to find if you don't know where to look, as is
> typical in theUNIX world. I stick with my premise: Linux is very new user
> unfriendly.
>
> > Now, you;re probably saying something like "well, its easier in Win98,
> > all you do is hit Ctrl-Alt-Del and the task manager pops up". One
> > thing you're forgetting: did it EVER take only one try to end a task?
> > I've never ended a task in less than two Ctrl-Alt-Delete then "End
> > Task" commands! Its usually taken three or more! And it even pops up
> > a window asking you if you really want to kill the process, as if
> > already needing to Press Ctrl-Alt-Del three times didn't indicate a
> > willingness to kill the process!
> It often takes one try. Often you have to WAIT for about 30 seconds.
> Sometimes you have to reboot, but Win9X is just a DOS shell after all. Even
> so, the reboot process doesn't take much longer than the Linux process you
> outlined. In WinNT this is much better than 9X.
> >
> > Linux KILL, on the other hand, doesn't fool around. Tell Linux to
> > kill a process, it is DEAD on the FIRST TRY.
> True, if you can figure out how. I hope many others saw your instructions on
> how to do it and wrote it down.
> >
> > >Other times I have had to shutdown and restart X because it
> > >begins to slow like an overloaded Windows98 system.
> >
> > Note that instead of rebooting the ENTIRE COMPUTER, you could simply
> > reboot the GUI.
> Note that I said, "shutdown and restart X." I didn't say reboot.
> >
> > What happens when the same thing happens in Win98? Reboot the whole
> > computer, of course!
> If there are resource leaks, yes, but on a practical level, there isn't any
> difference. The effect is the same.
> >
> > >Also, programs load slower than in Windows,
> >
> > ...but crash less often. You've mentioned the GUI crashing, but you
> > haven't mentioned any apps crashing.
> >
> Oh, pleeeze! If the GUI is hosed, just how do I use the apps? Gimp, BTW, has
> a habit of closing itself down whenever it feels like it.
>
> > >and if I'm downloading anything the whole system runs in slow motion.
> >
> > Sounds like downloads have a slightly higher priority setting. You
> > can reset downloads to have a lower priority.
> It may be. However, the amount of RAM is also an issue, and I found that
> Linux refuses to admit that I have 128MB or RAM. It sees 64MB. Why isn't it
> smarter than this? Win98, NT, and BeOS have no trouble with that.
> >
> > Win98, by contrast, will simply STOP if the download develops an error
> > and demands the entire CPU. It can do that in Win98.
> >
> Never seen that.
>
> > >> > In summary:
> > >> > -----------
> > >> > The Linux KERNEL is good. No one can argue about that. But to have
> > >> > an OS for the end user has nothing to do with the KERNEL. The
> > >> > main problem with Linux as and end user, is that there is no overall
> > >> > guiding strategy and design to drive it. Each linux group decide to
> make
> > >> > something as they please, a new Linux flavour is out each month. We
> now
> > >> > have 75 Linux distro and counting. No standard way to do anything.
> From
> > >> > application installation to printer setup to configuring the network.
> > >> >
> > >> > It is like being in the kitchen with 20 cooks making one big dinner.
> > >Each
> > >> > want to do the dinner their own way.
> > >> >
> > >> > Unless this is fundemantly chaned, linux will never compete with
> windows
> > >> > on the desktop. windows still claims 90% of the desktop. The reason
> is
> > >> > simple. It is simple to use and consistant in the way it works.
> > >> >
> > >> > Making something simple and easy to use is something the Linux
> advocates
> > >> > find very hard to understand. Users do not want 20 different ways to
> do
> > >> > the same thing. Users want the OS to hide the complixity of the
> machine
> > >> > from them. Users want an OS that is easy to configure and manage and
> > >use.
> > >> >
> > >> > So far, windows is winning in this area, if it were not, it would not
> > >> > have 90% market share. (of course, you will blame this on MS
> marketing,
> > >> > right?)
> > >>
> > >> Right now I get pleas for help in the home windows area. Always have
> to
> > >> defrag their hard drives, boot up in Dos, do a scanreg /fix, and a
> > >> scanreg /opt. Depending on the user you have to do this about once a
> > >> week on various brands of hardware. I do not call this reliable. Now
> > >> people are asking "Is there another machine out there that doesn't use
> > >> Microsoft?" Yes, either get one with linux pre-installed, like HP, or
> > >> buy a Mac.
> > >> Windows is winning only because of marketing strategy and the usual
> P.T.
> > >> Barnum effect.
> > >>
> > >> If you don't want to run games, get a 64-bit Sun Blade 100 for $950
> with
> > >> Solaris 8.
> > >> If you want to run games there is the PCI card for $400 to plug in to
> > >> run windows.
> > >
> > >I have one more to add: software installation. I downloaded WordPerfect
> 8,
> > >unzipped it, un"tar"ed it, and it refused to install. Oh, well.
> >
> > WordPerfect8 is a kludge Corel created. IT isn't real Linux code, it
> > is Windows code developed to run under a special version of WINE (WINE
> > Is Not an Emulator) and WINE is known to still have some bugs in it.
> Thanks, Corel. I'm not surprised.
> >
> > >Downloaded a small GNU-license word processor to upgrade the early
> > >version that came with RedHat. It said I needed to update several
> libraries
> > >and gave their cryptic names. Now what? How much time will it take to
> > >hunt these down? To some of you guys who lived with Unix since your
> > >college days this may be fine, but to a small business user who wasn't
> born
> > >with Unix in his genes and who needs his tools to work, this way of
> operating
> > >is unacceptable.
> >
> > I'd like to know the name of the GNU-license word processor you're
> > making claims about, and whether or not you downloaded the version
> > that runs with RedHat 7.
> AbiWord 0.7.13. The Windows version is great, and the BeOS version is pretty
> good (if you don't try to adjust the page layout, then it locks). And, yes,
> I downloaded the RPM for RedHat. I can read.
> >
> > >Windows apps just install any needed DLL updates (though
> > >that has it's own share of problems, but at least you can use the app).
> >
> > And before the DLLs are installed, what does the Windows app do?
> > Crash, most likely.
> Strawman argument. It simply isn't true.
> >
> > >I think it was Winston Churchill who said, "Democracy is the worst form
> of
> > >government, except for all the others." I think you could change the
> first
> > >clause of this to "Windows is the worst PC OS,..."
> >
> > The accurate statement is "Windoze is the worst PC OS, thanks to all
> > the others."
> It is what it is due to Mr. Bill, but it isn't that bad. I can get all my
> work done with it. Can't say that for Linux.
> >
> > Linux has not succeeded largely due to Windoze marketing practices.
> Partly true. It also hasn't succeeded due to the attitudes of it's advocacy;
> that Windows users are stupid and needs guidance from a higher power.
> Insulting potential Linux customers is not a great way to generate business.
> the complexity is also a real barrier. For what small business and home
> users need, Linux is a Rube Goldberg mechanism. It provides needlessly
> complex ways of performing simple tasks.
LOL! Why do you think they call MS-dos messy-dos?? Windows is no
better.
>
> > If you had Linux pre-installed when you bought the computer, you
> > wouldn't have had a problem.
> Bad Assumption #1. I built my PC and have done so for years. Anyhow, this is
> no excuse. Sooner or later a user has to learn how to maintain and update
> his software. Linux makes this much harder than it has to be.
How long have you been using dos and then windows?
How long have you been using Linux?
> >
> > Also, if you had read the manual that came with your Panasonic
> > printer, you would have known in advance that the Epson driver works
> > with the Panasonic printer line.
> >
> Bad Assumption #2. I bought my printer at a thrift store for $14.99. Great
> deal, but no manual. Would it be so much trouble for Linux distributors to
> make this information available? Why should I always have to look elsewhere
> for information that should be available with the product?
Use ghostscript. Look into the ghostscript docs. It works. The
drivers are a hardware vendor issue not a Linux issue.
A lot of printers are Epson compatible... some printers are designed as
Windows only. Kinda like a winmodem.
--
V
------------------------------
From: Gunner© <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
misc.survivalism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,soc.singles,alt.society.liberalism,talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: Communism, Communist propagandists in the US...still..to this day.
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 12:13:47 -0700
Mathew <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>Slavery;child labour
As opposed to a 16 yr old working at Burger King?
>Supporting dictatorships that killed opponenets,
How about supporting democracies that killed opponents?
Think WW2
>enslavened workers to
>live on wage that keeps them malnourished and hungry.
How about employing workers that live on a wage that is better than
no wage at all? Mexico comes to mind, as does India.
gunner
=========================================================
"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an
invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write
a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort
the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone,
solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program
a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die
gallantly. Specialization is for insects." Robert Heinlein
------------------------------
From: Karel Jansens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: What's the point
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 12:08:22 +0000
Kelsey Bjarnason wrote:
>
> "Neil Cerutti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > Kelsey Bjarnason posted:
> > >How long does it take a person to learn how to use a typewriter,
> > >in order to produce a document? About 10 seconds.
> >
> > No way. Take somebody who've never used a typewriter before, sit
> > them down in front of one and ask them to type you up some
> > mailing labels. See if they figure it out in ten seconds.
>
> Note I said "a document". Mailing labels require some fancier layout
> controlling. Fine, call it a half hour? You think they could learn Linux
> system administration in a half hour? Or a half a week, even?
>
No, but that is - to say the least - an unfair comparison.
So, give a novice user a fully configured PC with linux, X, a decent WM
and Applix or StarOffice installed and I am willing to bet that in 30
minutes the novice will be able to produce an acceptable-looking
document.
But don't teach them the bit about the Tippex; it'll ruin the monitor.
--
Regards,
Karel Jansens
==============================================================
"You're the weakest link. Goodb-No, wait! Stop! Noaaarrghh!!!"
==============================================================
------------------------------
From: Karel Jansens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: soc.singles
Subject: Re: Why Linux Is no threat to Windows domination of the desktop
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 20:48:10 +0000
Chad Everett wrote:
>
> Trouble is homosexuals are a politically vocal group who want to shove
> their sexuality down the throats of everybody else...
Talk about ill-chosen metaphores...
--
Regards,
Karel Jansens
==============================================================
"You're the weakest link. Goodb-No, wait! Stop! Noaaarrghh!!!"
==============================================================
------------------------------
From: Karel Jansens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: bank switches from using NT 4
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 20:57:31 +0000
Are you Todd Kepus?
--
Regards,
Karel Jansens
==============================================================
"You're the weakest link. Goodb-No, wait! Stop! Noaaarrghh!!!"
==============================================================
------------------------------
From: Karel Jansens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Windows 2000 Rocks!
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 21:02:19 +0000
mmnnoo wrote:
>
> Okay, okay, we get it already - you're trolling.
>
Not even that.
The Troll-O-Meter <TM> didn't even wobble.
The "Little-Punk-On-Weekend-Without-Homework"-O-Meter <TM> blew off the
scale, however.
> In article <9btjab$n5v$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Hullo"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > It is incredibly excellent dude. You know it, I know it. It rocks.
> >
> >
> > "The Ghost In The Machine" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in
> > message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >> In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Hullo
> >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> wrote
> >> on Sat, 21 Apr 2001 20:01:48 +0100
> >> <9bslgm$jp8$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> >> >It's great.
> >>
> >> That's not horribly specific. What, precisely, is it that you like
> >> about Win2k that wasn't available in NT4, Win98SE, or WinME? How about
> >> competitive products such as RedHat, Mandrake, Debian, SuSE, and
> >> Slackware, all of which are Linux-based? Will Windows XP "rock" even
> >> more, even though, in the opinion of this poster, it looks like
> >> something more suitable for Fischer-Price than Microsoft? Do we really
> >> need giant-sized idiot-proof icons?
> >>
> >> (At one point, NT was touted as "the most reliable operating system"
> >> or some such -- and then Win2k came out as "the even more reliable
> >> operating system". Bizarre.)
> >>
> >> Will Win2k allow for arbitrarily large scaling? Linux can work on a
> >> dinky little 386 with 4 megs of memory (granted, it can't do much) all
> >> the way to gigantic iron: an IBM S/390 system. It can also work on a
> >> lot in between -- I have a version installed on an older model SPARC,
> >> for example; it also supports PPCs, Amigas, Ataris, and Macs. HP is
> >> reputed to be working on, or at least lending support to, a version for
> >> their PA RISC line. I suspect Sun might be at least studying it, with
> >> an eye towards improving Solaris. It's even possible Solaris code might
> >> make its way into Linux.
> >>
> >> And with such things as KDE and Gnome, Linux et al has a number of
> >> choices of pretty GUIs -- and the Linux ones tend to be more useful, if
> >> one has half a clue. Or one can roll one's own, albeit that takes a
> >> bit of work. (I'll admit I'm weird; Athena looked extremely ugly but
> >> was reasonably easy to work with. Modern variants have improved on its
> >> appearance, though.)
> >>
> >> Oodles of software exist for Linux, much of it in source form. Not sure
> >> how many more oodles exist for Linux, and whether there's more for
> >> Linux or for Windows -- one difference I do note is that Linux software
> >> always has source if it's free, whereas Windows software usually gets
> >> just an .EXE or a .DLL. At least, that's my impression.
> >>
> >> Some of it is even useful -- in fact, a lot of Linux freeware is
> >> useful. One example: PostgreSQL, a full-featured relational database.
> >> Another is Gnumeric, a Gnome spreadsheet. Still another is Lyx (a
> >> front-end to TeX or LaTeX, which are both extremely competent
> >> typesetting packages).
> >>
> >> So...again...what was it about Windows 2K you liked so much?
> >>
> >> --
> >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- insert random misquote here EAC code #191
> >> 5d:16h:56m actually running Linux.
> >> We are all naked underneath our clothes.
> >
> >
--
Regards,
Karel Jansens
==============================================================
"You're the weakest link. Goodb-No, wait! Stop! Noaaarrghh!!!"
==============================================================
------------------------------
From: Ace Agincourt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft,us.military.army,soc.singles
Subject: Re: OT: Treason (was Re: Communism)
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 20:16:45 +0100
Hi Roberto,
On 22 Apr 2001 18:33:20 GMT,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Roberto Alsina)
put fingers to keyboard and tapped away writing:
? Ace Agincourt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
? >Hi Roberto,
? >
? >On 21 Apr 2001 17:58:20 GMT,
? >[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Roberto Alsina)
? >put fingers to keyboard and tapped away writing:
? >
? >? Ace Agincourt wrote:
? >? >Hi Roberto,
? >? >
? >? >On 20 Apr 2001 18:40:28 GMT,
? >? >[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Roberto Alsina)
? >? >put fingers to keyboard and tapped away writing:
? >? >
? >? >? billh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
? >? >? >
? >? >? >"Roberto Alsina"
? >? >? >
? >? >? >> You apparently don't know what absurd means.
? >? >? >> You say it's not murder because it's not unlawful, right?
? >? >? >
? >? >? >No. I said killing in war is not murder, is not unlawful, is not immoral,
? >? >? >and is not unethical.
? >? >? >
? >? >? >You chose to believe that means I said, "it's not murder because it's not
? >? >? >unlawful." Something I've never said
? >? >?
? >? >? Murder is by definition unlawful. Therefore, if you say killing at war
? >? >? is not unlawful, the alleged lawfulness of the killing is sufficient
? >? >? cause for the killing not to be murder.
? >? >
? >? >
? >? >Serbia was at war with the Kosovas. Are you claiming that the mass
? >? >murders did not occur. Also, Hitler went to war against the Jews.
? >? >Are you a holocaust denier?
? >?
? >? I see you joined late, so my position, by reading only the above,
? >? could be misunderstood.
? >?
? >? I personally believe any killing not in self defense, including
? >? killing at war, should be considered murder. I was only taking
? >? Bill´s position to one of its many unpleasant logical outcomes.
? >
? >
? >So you think a man who throws a young child on an unexploded hand
? >grenade, to save himself, has committed no crime, moral or legal?
?
? No, I think he is stupid and a murderer.
?
? Stupid because that´s a silly way to try to save yourself from a
? grenade (It´s probably faster to try to jump away or throw the
? grenade instead).
So a man who throws himself onto a grenade, lobbed into a football
stadium, is being stupid, not a hero, as it's a silly way to save
others' lives.
?
? A murderer because he was not being attacked by the kid, so it
? is not self defense.
He was acting to defend his life. That's self defense.
Best wishes, Ace.
====================
This story shall the good man teach his son;
And Crispin Crispian shall ne'er go by,
>From this day to the ending of the world.
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