Linux-Advocacy Digest #244, Volume #34 Sun, 6 May 01 03:13:02 EDT
Contents:
Linux Advocacy (Charlie Ebert)
Re: Shared library hell (Pete Goodwin)
Re: Linux disgusts me (Pete Goodwin)
Re: Linux disgusts me (Pete Goodwin)
Re: Windos is *unfriendly* (Pete Goodwin)
Re: Windos is *unfriendly* (Pete Goodwin)
Re: Linux has one chance left......... (Pete Goodwin)
Re: Linux disgusts me (.)
Re: Another Windows pc gets Linux (Pete Goodwin)
Re: Another Windows pc gets Linux (Pete Goodwin)
Re: Linux advocacy or Windows bashing? (Charlie Ebert)
Re: Windos is *unfriendly* (Charlie Ebert)
Re: Linux has one chance left......... (Peter =?ISO-8859-1?Q?K=F6hlmann?=)
Re: Shared library hell (Perry Pip)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Charlie Ebert)
Subject: Linux Advocacy
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 06:04:21 GMT
Interesting things I've encountered talking to people about Linux.
While it's a fact that Linux's growth rate outstripps Microsoft's
in 2000 and will continue to do so beyond until Microsoft's death,
I must say the IDC report of this statistical growth rate only
included RedHat, Suse, and Mandrake for some reason.
They have no mention of #2 Debian in their figures nor Turbo Linux
nor the other top 25 distributions around the world. This to me
seems rather one sided and doesn't accurately report the sucess of
Linux marketplace. The IDC reports Linux at #1 with a 27% growth
rate to Microsoft's 18%.
And this kind of news and the media coverage has prompted a number
of people to submit their displeasure with me and my Linux Advocacy.
Here is some of the comments made to me by our awakening userbase.
COMMENT:
Linux is a communist operating system, I'm not using a communist
operating system!
RESPONSE:
Your full of fucking crap. Linux is developed mainly by people
in the western world. It's not developed by communists.
COMMENT:
Linux Torvalds IS A COMMUNIST!
RESPONSE:
Linux Torvalds is about as much a communist as Ronald Regan was.
The guy drives a high dollar car and lives in a high dollar house in
California. He's a fucking millionaire. And NO, I dont' think he
has anything to do with powercompanies in California.
COMMENT:
That's not true! Linus Torvalds is from Finland!
RESPONSE:
Oh well Finland! Yes madam, I remember the Finland problem well.
Remember back in the 50's when we were trying to root out all Finlanders
from America! Movie Stars were being drug into congress and put up on
the stand and asked what connection they had with Finish politics!
Then there were all those ICBM treaties we had with Finland and
those Finish ICBM carrying submarines we had to chase for the last 40
years! And in Viet Nam we were fighting communists carrying Finish
made weapons! I'm glad you pointed this out to me.
COMMENT:
I don't like Linux because of the GPL License. You know, 19 year olds
can read the source code and come up with free applications which
would be competing with mine in the marketplace. They'd be stealing
my marketshare and taking food away from my family. You know some
15-21 year old lives at home and doesn't have to worry about making a living
but I have to. We have a business to run here and I don't want to face
the frustrations of competing with kids
RESPONSE:
Son! If your worried about some 9 year old comming out with an application
which would defeat YOUR application then I'd suggest going into
lawncare or some other field you can handle as you obviously aren't worth
your weight in shit as a programmer and I think you've just told me so.
TAKE CARE...
COMMENT:
It is our policy to run Microsoft products.
RESPONSE:
When George Bush allows Gasoline to hit $3.00 a gallon and the nation
is in a super depression, just how are you going to explain to the
owners why it was so necessary we stay with the MOST BUGGY, MOST
UNSECURE, MOST EXPENSIVE WEB SERVER CLUSTER KNOWN TO MAN?
Was it your plan to just get fired then so you don't have to worry
about it?
COMMENT:
I don't think Linux matters nor Microsoft as I feel E-business is
a flopp.
RESPONSE:
Does this mean we will be selling the Microsoft IIS cluster then sir?
COMMENT:
I don't want to use Linux as it's simply too difficult to understand
how to use it or install it. Windows is much easier to install and use
and I don't think we need to use anything else. So the Linux subject
is closed. Now come by in about an hour and get my terminal application
running again on my workstation pretty please...
RESPONSE:
Yes sir.
{I've had this one about 500 times at least}
COMMENT:
Microsoft is the only OS which will survive Charlie because REDHAT's
stock price is just going nowhere! Don't you understand that for a
OS to survive and be useful to anybody in the business world it's stock
price must show growth and remain high. Only an OS which is traded actively
on the stock market will survive. It's the only way anything works.
RESPONSE:
If REDHAT took the deep 6 tommorrow, Linux would still be there as
Linux isn't develped by companies for the most part, it's developed
by the public at large. REDHAT is mainly just a collecting and packaging
company which funds some efforts for free software.
COMMENT:
Linux? What is Linux? Can it be bought?
RESPONSE:
When's the last time you went to a CompUSA or Bestbuy?
Do you live in a cave? Where have you been?
COMMENT:
There is no reason to change from Microsoft IIS to REDHAT as the
two OS's are the same on the performance scale.
RESPONSE:
IIS isn't an OS. W2k is 2.5 times slower than REDHAT, see IBM study.
REDHAT also doesn't cost us $2,000 a box to implement in our cluster.
So we could better server our customers for much less money.
You know the GOAL of every company in the world is to do business more
efficiently.
COMMENT:
REDHAT won't support the special features needed to communicate with
Microsoft IE so our customers won't get the best marketing approach.
RESPONSE:
What feature is missing? What are you talking about?
{I always get dead silence from this response and usually they leave as
there is no difference in service and this comment is usually made by
people who have never developed web applications much less programs}
COMMENT:
I won't use LINUX as it's developed by the same HACKERS who spread
viruses and I don't like HACKERS or approve of their activities.
RESPONSE:
A CRACKER is a person who builds and spreads viruses.
A HACKER is a person who writes GPL'd code for Linux applications or
perhaps the OS base.
And if you could write one simple program to just spell your name on
the screen and say "HELLO" you'd know this too.
COMMENT:
I know VB and VB is the current way of the world. I've never bought
a copy of VB nor Windows so I really don't need Linux.
RESPONSE:
If they catch you burning that copy of VB enterprise someday our
boss is going to get a $100,000 fine and your going to be fitted
with a nice ORANGE JUMP SUIT and shipped to springfield for about 20 years.
You know this don't you ?
COMMENT:
We simply don't have a problem with uptime on our Microsoft Servers.
RESPONSE:
That explains why I never seem to hear phrases like, "THEY CAN'T GET IN"
or "WE'RE DOWN AGAIN, WHAT'S GOING ON THIS TIME" which I hear every
3 weeks since my date of employment. You loose a chunk of our system
on average every month. And every time I suggest Linux you tell me we
don't have an UPTIME problem.
--
Charlie
=======
------------------------------
From: Pete Goodwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Shared library hell
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 06:08:20 GMT
Donn Miller wrote:
> At least under Linux you can use ldd to find out which shared libs the app
> is
> linked to. Under Windows, even with Cygwin, I don't think there is the
> equivalent of ldd to find out which shared libs the app needs. I was
> frustrated by that shortcoming (and many others).
QuickView of an EXE or a DLL _used_ to show imports and hence the DLL's
required. This feature disappeared with later versions. The alternate is
'depends' which comes with VC++ or 'tdump' that comes with any Borland tool.
--
Pete
------------------------------
From: Pete Goodwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linux disgusts me
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 06:10:04 GMT
Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
> Anti-aliased fonts affect the performance of a computer. I finally
> disabled them on my NT laptop, because it made screen updates in
> one of my programmer's editors noticeably slower.
I switch 'em on, and every Windows desktop is still faster than Linux.
--
Pete
------------------------------
From: Pete Goodwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linux disgusts me
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 06:11:55 GMT
Terry Porter wrote:
> I believe the paradigm of x.0 software being buggy and therefore
> best left alone, only applies to Commercial Software.
AbiWord?
> This is one of the reasons that Linux software is often below
> 1.0, the same paradigms dont apply.
AbiWord?
--
Pete
------------------------------
From: Pete Goodwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Windos is *unfriendly*
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 06:14:19 GMT
Terry Porter wrote:
>>> Tell us again Wintrolls, how "easy" Windos is to set up ?
>>
>> Funny I managed to do it ten minutes of faffing around.
>
> Well the poor (average) Windos user above couldnt, perhaps your
> degrees helped out here ?
Unlikely. It doesn't take a degree to figure out networking.
>> I even managed to
>> get Linux to talk to Windows (though it's a bit of struggle).
>
> Yeah I know, and while Windos keeps perverting standards it
> won't get any easier.
>
> What are we having on our network today, Netbui or Netbios?
Is Netbios a published standard? Is Samba a reverse engineered product?
--
Pete
------------------------------
From: Pete Goodwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Windos is *unfriendly*
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 06:15:52 GMT
Terry Porter wrote:
> Yep, but remember its Windos, and networking has always been
> difficult with that OS.
That explains why I have Windows network up and running and Linux I have to
start DHCP manually.
>> Mind you, judging by the way
>> the commercial companies trying to make a go of linux, maybe its brown
> ^^^^ exploit
>> tinted glasses.
>
> Comercialism and Linux OS sales **dont** mix.
So Linux is not commercial?
--
Pete
------------------------------
From: Pete Goodwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linux has one chance left.........
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 06:21:36 GMT
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I have very strong opinions and have always tended to be that way
> whether it is politics or operating systems or what ever. That doesn't
> mean that my opinions can't change over time. Why commit myself to
> something that might change in the future?
I'm not sure I understand that...
> I don't judge others but I feel it is foolish to use ones own name and
> I feel that people who ignore the content of a message and focus on
> that fact are as equally foolish as the grammer/spelling police.
Because, flatfish, you appear to change name and ID quite regularly. There
is an accusation that you do so, so as to appear to be a new user
experiencing problems with Linux. It calls into question your sincerity, so
therefore a certain number ignore what you and focus on your deception.
Grammer/spelling is just an irritation - you can accept that in a message -
though it can make the message difficult to read. However, it does not
indicate insincerity.
--
Pete
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (.)
Subject: Re: Linux disgusts me
Date: 6 May 2001 06:23:29 GMT
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> So then you Linonuts should put pictures of a Bourne Shell # prompt on
> the back of the distribution boxes and tell the prospective buyer how
> great it is instead of all of these pretty pictures that don't end up
> looking anything like what is displayed on the monitor when and if the
> buyer is actually able to install Linux.
Or, if KDE isnt stable enough for your taste, you can simply switch
to a more stable windowmanager, like windowmaker, blackbox, fvwm2
or icebox.
Everything is there for the person who doesnt mind using their
brain just a little bit.
=====.
--
"Great babylon has fallen, fallen, fallen;
Jerusalem has fallen, fallen, fallen!
The great, Great Beast is DEAD! DEAD! DEAD! DEAD!"
------------------------------
From: Pete Goodwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Another Windows pc gets Linux
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 06:25:25 GMT
T. Max Devlin wrote:
>>You're grasping at straws.
>
> Yea, right, sure, blah, blah, blah...
About the level of discussion I've come to expect from you. Complete and
utter noise.
>>I wanted to say Word does not need the extra step. Lyx does, and needs a
>>filename. So what if Word is incapable of doing it?
>
> Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha! "So what if it sucks rocks: Microsoft makes it, so it
> must be good!"
So, you chose to ignore the specific point and try instead to switch to a
more general one. Again, another marker in your style of "discussion".
--
Pete
------------------------------
From: Pete Goodwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Another Windows pc gets Linux
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 06:27:19 GMT
Terry Porter wrote:
>>> > It is? I've just demonstrated in another post that it takes far less
>>> > steps in Word to write and print a letter.
> And I pointed out that your wrong, it only takes less steps than Word
> if you initiate Lyx from a Xterm
Funny, it looked like more steps to me.
> If Lyx is initiated from a icon, menu, or automatically via
> filetype, then the number of steps are the same.
That makes sense.
> I also pointed out that Lyx can be run remotely, something
> Word cannot be, without 3rd party apps.
That's only useful if you want to do that sort of thing.
--
Pete
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Charlie Ebert)
Subject: Re: Linux advocacy or Windows bashing?
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 06:33:51 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Jasper wrote:
>The problem is simply that Microsoft is continuing to develop products
>at a rather frightening rate. Every month we see a new version of
>software being released or an assault on an area of computing
>previously thought to be out of the grasp of Microsoft. This
>generates media interest and also targets for the bashers to focus on.
>
I don't know about the frightening rate part as it took them 2 years
to spit out W2k. But I'll agree they are frightening.
Frightening cost and a security risk at best.
>The year 2001 for Linux?
>
Linux is continuing to grow at a rate which is almost double that
of Microsoft's. Linux releases occure every 3-4 months, not years.
>The new kernel release hardly made a ripple - except for a host of bug
>reports. The IBM deal looks great - but how long can you advocate
>something when no one really knows what IBM plan to do with Linux.
>Will it just replace AIX or will they attempt to market it in the way
>they did OS2? Sun will now use Gnome as their standard desktop. Does
>this mean the Linux community should abandon KDE?
>
You don't have to abandon anything.
As with HP-UX or AIX or SUN, in the future you'll just be
given Linux and GNOME. Your not going to have a choice in the
matter.
The growth rate of Linux has been picking up steam for 4 straight
years now and continues to be the #1 most growing OS with Microsoft
being currently #2.
Windows users will continue to puddle along until 2005 which will
be the year Linux surpasses Microsoft in userbase given the current
growth rate.
>These are rather boring issues the general public doesn't care about.
>
I get this all the time. If they were BORING and NOBODY CARED ABOUT
it then why are you here?
Your here because you already know your full of shit and your worried
that someday Windows will fall of the pedistle. Well, it's going to
happen. Now what? Will you spend the next 4 years with your head
in the sand using Windows waiting for your final death?
>In the meanwhile Microsoft are continually developing along a
>multitude of IT areas in parallel. If only because of their name the
>minute they enter a new market they make instant inroads and generate
>media attention. They also attempt to do things on a scale that only
>an organization of their size would attempt.
>
If it wouldn't be of TOO much trouble, what things has Microsoft
thrown out lately which you consider to be of ground breaking news?
Further, why not mention them here?
>Also Linux advocates continue to ignore fundamental problems with
>their system. Things such as lack of ACL's, no journalled file system
>and no micro kernel architecture. Although SSH is available, it is
>far from comprehensive across all network interfaces and there is no
>enforcement of encryption - as Microsoft did with SP3 and onwards.
>Does NFS work properly with the new kernel? It certainly hasn't with
>previous releases. NFS itself should have been abandoned years ago if
>only on the basis of security issues alone.
>
Linux has a Journaled file system known as Reiser. It's been in use
for 3-4 years now.
I don't know why you fancy micro kernel architectures as they are performance
lossy. There's no advantage to running one. The HURD is a micro kernel
OS which is being developed under Debian if your interested.
As far as the rest of the comments, NFS comes in a variety of flavors
at least in Debian and you've already mentioned your aware of SSH in
Linux so how is it your forgot how SCP works? How many way's of encryption
do you think you need?
As far as ACL's goes, I'll put them in the same boat as Active X which
Linux doesn't have nor need either.
>And for goodness sake can any Linux advocate say with a straight face
>they can easily connect their Linux box to an ISP? They should be
>working on this issue night and day because nobody is going to use
>Linux is they cannot connect to the Internet. But instead they prefer
>to call users names rather than address the issue.
>
WVDIAL asks you once for the phone number, user name {LOGIN} and password.
>From that it finds your modem, tests it, dials the number and connects.
Unlike Windows dial up networking, WVDIAL never fails to do the job.
>What about the lack of databasing with configuration files under
>Linux? /etc/passwd is a joke. The CPU cycles require to parse all of
>these free formatted text files must be enormous. Is there a plan to
>address this issue?
Allow me to address this comment with the IBM study recently released
where they publicized and released the test software to prove
W2k is 2.5 times slower than even 2.2 kernel bound Linux.
>You can only talk about uptimes for so long. And frankly people don't
>care that your system is up for a year. Any server not having a
>single hardware or software upgrade in a year would be poorly
>maintained. And uptimes in the desktop field are a non-issue.
>
Well at least I don't have to read lies about Microsoft UPTIMES
being higher from this person. I thank you for being honest
here.
>On Fri, 4 May 2001 14:50:03 +0200, "Mikkel Elmholdt"
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>A quick (and non-scientific) overview of this newsgroup reveals that the
>>majority of posts are related to anti-Microsoft topics and not to the
>>official topic of the newsgroup, namely advocating the virtues of Linux.
>>
>>It's a well-known fact, that if you cannot really come up some good
>>arguments for your case, then you can always fall back on hammering on your
>>opponents weaknesses. Is that the case here? If it is, then I find it rather
>>lame.
>>
>>Any damn fool can bash Microsoft ..... but try to put up a compelling case
>>for the use of Linux, would be a more challenging task, at least for the
>>majority of posters here.
>>
>>Mikkel
>>
>>
>>
>
--
Charlie
=======
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Charlie Ebert)
Subject: Re: Windos is *unfriendly*
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 06:43:06 GMT
In article <s_5J6.8122$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Pete Goodwin wrote:
>Terry Porter wrote:
>
>> Yep, but remember its Windos, and networking has always been
>> difficult with that OS.
>
>That explains why I have Windows network up and running and Linux I have to
>start DHCP manually.
>
I go away for just a couple of months and you go ballistic idiot
again Pete!
So DHCP won't start automatically on your Linux box then!
HUMM, could it be that your a fucking dumbass? What did you do
to disable it then? How'd you manage it since you don't know anything
about Linux? Did you accidentally blow away INIT.D from root?
Did you finally figure out how RPM uninstall works?
Oh I know! You formatted the Linux partition flat this time!
BTW, it's been a year since we first met and Linux is still the
#1 fastest growing OS! And you've been campainging hard against
Linux for One year now! And LOOSING appearently for one year now.
27% growth rate for Linux and 18% for Windows.
It doesn't look good for Microsoft Pete. Better try harder!
>>> Mind you, judging by the way
>>> the commercial companies trying to make a go of linux, maybe its brown
>> ^^^^ exploit
>>> tinted glasses.
>>
>> Comercialism and Linux OS sales **dont** mix.
>
>So Linux is not commercial?
>
>--
>Pete
>
--
Charlie
=======
------------------------------
From: Peter =?ISO-8859-1?Q?K=F6hlmann?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linux has one chance left.........
Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 22:18:29 +0200
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> I have very strong opinions and have always tended to be that way
> whether it is politics or operating systems or what ever. That doesn't
> mean that my opinions can't change over time. Why commit myself to
> something that might change in the future?
>
So you just want commit yourself to an opinion which you feel could
change sometime in the future?
Well, I would say anyone with a healthy selfesteem just says waht he/she
thinks. If later on that opinion changes, so what?
I personally regard people who admit that they had to change their mind
much higher than those who would never admit such things.
> I don't judge others but I feel it is foolish to use ones own name and
> I feel that people who ignore the content of a message and focus on
> that fact are as equally foolish as the grammer/spelling police.
>
But the message belongs to a certain person
> Read the message, agree/disagree/debate.
>
I do, but any message by a "real" person is lots better.
For example, that idiot "Nomen Nescio" permeats this group with his
completely unthreaded messages, because he goes to such extremes
as posting via anonymizer. That guy should be strangled with his
modem-cable, short and simple.
Month ago you were quite obnoxious with your posts, later they were much
more reasonable, then you disapperared for several weeks (holydays ?)
only to be back again with a vigilance.
I agree that linux is not (yet) everything people would need, in several
cases windows is (still) better. But I (and I already use linux in my
everyday work) notice also the speed, with which linux has changed from
an OS for the knowledgeable to an OS often easier to install and use
compared to windows. If this keeps on, it won´t be long and windows is
just a memory (lets say 5 to 10 years)
Peter
--
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Perry Pip)
Subject: Re: Shared library hell
Date: 6 May 2001 06:54:55 GMT
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Sun, 06 May 2001 06:08:20 GMT,
Pete Goodwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Donn Miller wrote:
>
>> At least under Linux you can use ldd to find out which shared libs the app
>> is
>> linked to. Under Windows, even with Cygwin, I don't think there is the
>> equivalent of ldd to find out which shared libs the app needs. I was
>> frustrated by that shortcoming (and many others).
>
> QuickView of an EXE or a DLL _used_ to show imports and hence the DLL's
> required. This feature disappeared with later versions. The alternate is
> 'depends' which comes with VC++ or 'tdump' that comes with any Borland tool.
>
And where is the functionality of LD_PRELOAD and LD_LIBRARY_PATH under
windows?? Those in a wrapper script will fix any linking problem.
------------------------------
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