On 2018年06月28日 19:12, Austin S. Hemmelgarn wrote: > On 2018-06-28 05:15, Qu Wenruo wrote: >> >> >> On 2018年06月28日 16:16, Andrei Borzenkov wrote: >>> On Thu, Jun 28, 2018 at 8:39 AM, Qu Wenruo <quwenruo.bt...@gmx.com> >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> On 2018年06月28日 11:14, r...@georgianit.com wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Jun 27, 2018, at 10:55 PM, Qu Wenruo wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Please get yourself clear of what other raid1 is doing. >>>>> >>>>> A drive failure, where the drive is still there when the computer >>>>> reboots, is a situation that *any* raid 1, (or for that matter, >>>>> raid 5, raid 6, anything but raid 0) will recover from perfectly >>>>> without raising a sweat. Some will rebuild the array automatically, >>>> >>>> WOW, that's black magic, at least for RAID1. >>>> The whole RAID1 has no idea of which copy is correct unlike btrfs who >>>> has datasum. >>>> >>>> Don't bother other things, just tell me how to determine which one is >>>> correct? >>>> >>> >>> When one drive fails, it is recorded in meta-data on remaining drives; >>> probably configuration generation number is increased. Next time drive >>> with older generation is not incorporated. Hardware controllers also >>> keep this information in NVRAM and so do not even depend on scanning >>> of other disks. >> >> Yep, the only possible way to determine such case is from external info. >> >> For device generation, it's possible to enhance btrfs, but at least we >> could start from detect and refuse to RW mount to avoid possible further >> corruption. >> But anyway, if one really cares about such case, hardware RAID >> controller seems to be the only solution as other software may have the >> same problem. > LVM doesn't. It detects that one of the devices was gone for some > period of time and marks the volume as degraded (and _might_, depending > on how you have things configured, automatically re-sync). Not sure > about MD, but I am willing to bet it properly detects this type of > situation too. >> >> And the hardware solution looks pretty interesting, is the write to >> NVRAM 100% atomic? Even at power loss? > On a proper RAID controller, it's battery backed, and that battery > backing provides enough power to also make sure that the state change is > properly recorded in the event of power loss.
Well, that explains a lot of thing. So hardware RAID controller can be considered having a special battery (always atomic) journal device. If we can't provide UPS for the whole system, a battery powered journal device indeed makes sense. >> >>> >>>> The only possibility is that, the misbehaved device missed several >>>> super >>>> block update so we have a chance to detect it's out-of-date. >>>> But that's not always working. >>>> >>> >>> Why it should not work as long as any write to array is suspended >>> until superblock on remaining devices is updated? >> >> What happens if there is no generation gap in device superblock? >> >> If one device got some of its (nodatacow) data written to disk, while >> the other device doesn't get data written, and neither of them reached >> super block update, there is no difference in device superblock, thus no >> way to detect which is correct. > Yes, but that should be a very small window (at least, once we finally > quit serializing writes across devices), and it's a problem on existing > RAID1 implementations too (and therefore isn't something we should be > using as an excuse for not doing this). >> >>> >>>> If you're talking about missing generation check for btrfs, that's >>>> valid, but it's far from a "major design flaw", as there are a lot of >>>> cases where other RAID1 (mdraid or LVM mirrored) can also be affected >>>> (the brain-split case). >>>> >>> >>> That's different. Yes, with software-based raid there is usually no >>> way to detect outdated copy if no other copies are present. Having >>> older valid data is still very different from corrupting newer data. >> >> While for VDI case (or any VM image file format other than raw), older >> valid data normally means corruption. >> Unless they have their own write-ahead log. >> >> Some file format may detect such problem by themselves if they have >> internal checksum, but anyway, older data normally means corruption, >> especially when partial new and partial old. >> >> On the other hand, with data COW and csum, btrfs can ensure the whole >> filesystem update is atomic (at least for single device). >> So the title, especially the "major design flaw" can't be wrong any more. > The title is excessive, but I'd agree it's a design flaw that BTRFS > doesn't at least notice that the generation ID's are different and > preferentially trust the device with the newer generation ID. Well, a design flaw should be something that can't be easily fixed without *huge* on-disk format or behavior change. Flaw in btrfs' one-subvolume-per-tree metadata design or current extent booking behavior could be called design flaw. While for things like this, just as the submitted RFC patch, less than 100 lines could change the behavior. > The only > special handling I can see that would be needed is around volumes > mounted with the `nodatacow` option, which may not see generation > changes for a very long time otherwise. Nodatacow shouldn't cause much difference. We still have commit interval, and metadata CoW. Any btrfs metadata change or filesystem metadata change (inode change etc) will still leads to a new generation. Thanks, Qu >> >>> >>>>> others will automatically kick out the misbehaving drive. *none* >>>>> of them will take back the the drive with old data and start >>>>> commingling that data with good copy.)\ This behaviour from BTRFS >>>>> is completely abnormal.. and defeats even the most basic >>>>> expectations of RAID. >>>> >>>> RAID1 can only tolerate 1 missing device, it has nothing to do with >>>> error detection. >>>> And it's impossible to detect such case without extra help. >>>> >>>> Your expectation is completely wrong. >>>> >>> >>> Well ... somehow it is my experience as well ... :) >> >> Acceptable, but not really apply to software based RAID1. >> >> Thanks, >> Qu >> >>> >>>>> >>>>> I'm not the one who has to clear his expectations here.
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