Linux-Misc Digest #373, Volume #25 Mon, 7 Aug 00 16:13:03 EDT
Contents:
Re: reinstalling LILO (Dances With Crows)
Re: FWD: Red Hat's CFO abandoning ship. (Robert Krawitz)
Re: FWD: Red Hat's CFO abandoning ship. (Robert Krawitz)
Re: Installing Linux after Windows 2000 Pro ?
taskbar disappearing under gnome (Matt)
Re: FWD: Red Hat's CFO abandoning ship. (blowfish)
Re: Almost Lost New Hard Drive After Linux Install (Svend Olaf Mikkelsen)
reclaiming master boo block? (Peter Bismuti)
Re: FWD: Red Hat's CFO abandoning ship. (blowfish)
Re: FWD: Red Hat's CFO abandoning ship. (blowfish)
xv bugs (Neil Zanella)
Re: FWD: Red Hat's CFO abandoning ship. (blowfish)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Dances With Crows)
Subject: Re: reinstalling LILO
Date: 7 Aug 2000 19:17:30 GMT
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Mon, 07 Aug 2000 17:51:52 GMT, Simon Lemieux wrote:
>A boot floppy heh? Damn! I don't even have a floppy drive! Is it
>possible to make an image of that floppy and write it to a bootable CD
>to transform that bootable floppy into a bootable CD?
>Can I make an .ISO image of a floppy disk?
http://www.linuxcare.com/bootable_cd/download.epl
It looks *very* nifty, and provides all kinds of useful rescue/recovery
tools. Or you could make an El Torito bootable CD if you have a disk
around. Check the man page for mkisofs, paying attention to the -b and
-c options. If you have a bootable Linux floppy image file, then you'd
call mkisofs like so:
mkisofs -r -b boot.img -c boot.catalog -o output.iso
/path/to/rest/of/files/you/want/to/put/on/CD
then burn output.iso to CD with cdrecord in the usual manner.
--
Matt G|There is no Darkness in Eternity/But only Light too dim for us to see
Brainbench MVP for Linux Admin / Tyranny is always better organized
http://www.brainbench.com / than freedom.
=============================/ ==Charles Peguy
------------------------------
From: Robert Krawitz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.setup,gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: FWD: Red Hat's CFO abandoning ship.
Date: 07 Aug 2000 15:32:52 -0400
blowfish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Zebee Johnstone wrote:
> > Which isn't what you said. You said that the money went either to the
> > software company or the taxman.
> >
> Gosh!
>
> If you pay the money to the software company, and, as a result, you can
> pay less tax.
> Isn't that you still end up paying less?
Yes, but you still pay more than zero.
> > Clearly only half (at a marginal rate of 50%) goes to the taxman.
> >
> Then, deduct the other half as business loss. Talk to your tax
> accountant/bean counter.
Well, not quite. As a business expense, it has already been taken out
of your income. You can't (legally) deduct it twice.
> Take Boeing as an example. If they go the free software route, they can
> save millions in software costs, but they decided against it, because
> it's not practical for such a big international corp to switch
> everything, tens of thousands of employees in numourous countries, and,
> the trainning costs and time loss will far outcosted the cost saving in
> free software.
That's quite a different issue.
--
Robert Krawitz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://www.tiac.net/users/rlk/
Tall Clubs International -- http://www.tall.org/ or 1-888-IM-TALL-2
Member of the League for Programming Freedom -- mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Project lead for The Gimp Print -- http://gimp-print.sourceforge.net
"Linux doesn't dictate how I work, I dictate how Linux works."
--Eric Crampton
------------------------------
From: Robert Krawitz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: FWD: Red Hat's CFO abandoning ship.
Date: 07 Aug 2000 15:35:43 -0400
blowfish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Also. You did contradicted your own idea of *free software*, as you have
> taken the money from Debian as a reward.
>
> Isn't that your codes should be *FREE* as in money - free, unlike
> non-GNU-GPL codes-which costs money, as in *FREE BEER* too!?
No, "free" as in "free software" only refers to "free speech"
(liberty), not "free beer". It's perfectly legal to sell GPL'ed
software for whatever the market will bear. The only thing the seller
has to do is provide the source code, and not restrict further
distribution beyond what the GPL specifies.
--
Robert Krawitz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://www.tiac.net/users/rlk/
Tall Clubs International -- http://www.tall.org/ or 1-888-IM-TALL-2
Member of the League for Programming Freedom -- mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Project lead for The Gimp Print -- http://gimp-print.sourceforge.net
"Linux doesn't dictate how I work, I dictate how Linux works."
--Eric Crampton
------------------------------
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Installing Linux after Windows 2000 Pro ?
Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 15:28:17 -0400
The only thing to worry about is the size of the disk : 30 gig.
If you want w2k Pro & linux to dual boot, then make sure that linux's notion
of the hdd and the bios's are the same.
Go into the bios, and write down the chs values for the hdd.
Then, boot the computer either with the linux boot floppy , or from the
cdrom directly.
Watch carefully as it boots the kernel and spits out a lot of stuff. pay
close attention to the ide0 line .
The chs values ( it will be in brackets ) MUST match the ones in the bios.
if they don't, get your w2k disk, and prepare to reinstall it after making
the bios conform to what linux says. Or you could play around with lilo, and
pass it the parameters on boot . "hda=2550/63/255" or something similar.
Note that the numbers are random and were just pulled out of the air.
You can do that, and tell it to use LBA etc untill linux tells you the same
thing as the bios. Then you can start the install. You will however have to
resize the 30 gig partitino first . The latest partition magic that I used
screwed up things on large hdd's so be careful.
What would I do ?
1) check hardware compatibility first. Most notably the video card .
2) move all the important data off the 30 gig hdd into somewhere else :
borrow my friend's hdd's perhaps ?
3)destroy win2k ( delete it's partition.) . Use dos fdisk or something.
4) Boot any linux distro, and play around till the bios and the linux kernel
agree on the hdd geometry.
5) Make a small partition at the begining of t he hdd ( hda1 ) with may be
30 MB
This is the /boot partition into which goes the linux kernel and lilo.
*I* do *not* install lilo into the mbr. I put it on the /boot partition .
This seems to keep w2k happy.
6) back out of the install, ( That's right . I just wanted linux fdisk to
put in an entry for the boot partition,) after the partition is created.
7) boot with a dos boot disk, ( win98 perhaps ) and use it's fdisk to make a
2 gig primary partition . This is placed right after the /boot partition.
Enable large disk support ( fat32)
8) set the 2 gig to be active , reboot and format c: ( which is the 2 gig
partition.
9) use fdisk and grab the rest of the hdd as an extended partition.
10) install w2k into the 2 gig partition, but do not put in any apps, or any
special
stuff.
By now , w2k thinks it is the only os on the hdd, and doesn't give you the
multi boot option. Perfect. i use lilo to multi boot ( lot simpler than
messing with ntldr ).
11 ) boot dos, and use fdisk to set your /boot partition active ( It will be
labled "NON-DOS" or something,and is the first one.
12 ) now reboot, using the Linux installation disk, and do the real
install.The installer will prompt you as to where to put lilo. tell it to
put it into /boot ( /dev/hda1). It will identify the w2k as "dos" or
something. No problem. accept that, and continue.
13) Once linux is setup, edit the lilo.conf file and change the label on the
w2k option.
Run lilo at the command prompt, and reboot into w2k.If w2k complains
that it can;t boot, don;t worry. That's because w2k partition is marked as
hidden. use linux fdisk to change it to fat32 or something.
***Note to more knowledgeable persons - fill in here with details on
changing partition type id's ****
14) Get into w2k's disk administrator and make extra drives in the extended
partition for w2k.
15) Proceed to customize and install w2k apps/drivers .
phew! 15 steps. You know, I just read it over and felt a bit intimidated .
But it really isn't. Just put down all the things to do and in the right
sequence on paper, and follow it.
Hope this helps.
joseph
John Robson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:8mn08g$ott$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> I have a machine that comes with Windows 2000 Pro pre-installed on it. It
> has one 30-gig partition on one disk (C: drive).
>
> I would like to install Mandrake Linux 7.1 on it. I have installed
Mandrake on
> top of Win 95 before with no problems, but I'm not so sure about Win2K and
> the new Mandrake 7.1.
>
> Are there any potential problems and pitfalls I should be aware of ? Has
> anyone installed Linux (any distro, but especially Mandrake) on top of
> Win2K ?
>
------------------------------
From: Matt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: taskbar disappearing under gnome
Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 19:30:10 GMT
hi all
i have a recurring problem with my taskbar in gnome. it keeps disappearing
on me, usually when i look away from the screen for a second or two.
has anyone ever had this problem? and, if so, how did you fix it?
are there any error files that gnome will write to in this case? as a
guess, i tried .xsession-errors, and nothing useful showed up.
system specs:
RedHat 6.1
HelixGNOME 1.2
Sawfish (recent version. .29, or .30. im not at the box at the moment)
if you need more information, i can post it.
thanks in advance,
Matt
--
Posted via CNET Help.com
http://www.help.com/
------------------------------
From: blowfish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ..
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.setup,gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: FWD: Red Hat's CFO abandoning ship.
Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 12:40:16 -0700
Phillip Lord wrote:
>
> >>>>> "blowfish" == blowfish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> blowfish> Phillip Lord wrote:
>
> blowfish> Oh Boy!
>
> blowfish> From Penguin to world politics, economic and philosophy
> blowfish> all in one thread... Woo Wee! :P
>
> Yeah sorry 'bout this. I have never been able to keep to one
> argument for long, before I go off rambling on politics. Its one of my
> vices.
>
No, That alright. :-)
More interest this way. As tech stuff are dry and boring anyway.
It's nice to include the human factors in any discussion/debate.
> blowfish> I've created a MONSTER thread here. :-0
>
> blowfish> Oil has been the major income for Indonesia for ages.
>
> blowfish> According to my friends in Indonesia (native people, not
> blowfish> "foreigner."). The situation is more complex than what
> blowfish> you've described here.
>
> Always is.
>
> blowfish> Then, the natives in E. Timor got tired of being ruled by
> blowfish> "outsider.", and tired of the Chinese-Indosians
> blowfish> controlling much of the economy. They rebelled.
>
> I don't think that it was a question of rebellion. The
> Indonesia army invaded E.Timor. This would be about 28 years ago now,
> about 2 years after Suharto came to power in E.Timor. And funnily
> enough about 8 hours after Gerald Ford's plane left the tarmac on
> Jakarta, on the first official visit to Indonesia since Suharto.
>
My Indonesian friend who told me the story is sixty some years old. Her
family witnessed the whole thing.
Resources have always been a good reason to invade others.
China invaded others through out history, and China had been invaded by
the others through out history as well. That's why we had the warings
between the Grece, the Spatants, the Persians, the Macedonians... The
Vikings vs the Dans...the Moss invades Europe in the 12th Century, then,
the revenge by the crusaders, WW1, WW2, Sino-Japanese War, the northern
Ireland and the Brits, Rhodesia- now South Africa, Mozambique, the
outer-Mongolia, the Bosnia mess, you name it... it's the same old
shits...
I guess the power trip thingy is very important to a lots of people
through out history.
Remember the attempted coup Chili in the '70s.? For copper.
Vietnam? Because of her rubber. The Chinese invaded Vietnam thousands of
years ago. .. The French, then the Japanese... Rubber was very important
to the war machines before the synthetic materials started replacing
natural rubber at low costs...
The European colonies in Africa, Latin America, Asia (China-the opium
war, etc). For gold, diamond, slaves, ivory, etc., etc.
There are lots of reasons why all these invasions are taken place. I
guess it's part of human nature, the greed factor, or some hugh power
ego trip.
> blowfish> As far as the weapon goes. If the U.S., U.K. didn't sell
> blowfish> the Indonesian military the weapon. I'm sure France and
> blowfish> Brazil, or Cz would surely happy to fill the orders. It's
> blowfish> not a moral issue to the weapon trade. It's just another
> blowfish> business contract.
>
> This is a facetious argument. I would not get far in a court
> if I tried "well okay so I mugged the guy but if I didn't someone else
> would". Nor do I hear this argument from the US government when the
> send in the marines to burn out the poppy fields of the peasant
> farmers of Central America.
>
You won't get far in the court because you are just a "commoner" like me
and most others. :-)
Most in the arms trades have the blessing from their own government.
When you kill one person. You are a murderer.
When you kill a million people. Especially "to protect" your national
interests. You are than , a hero. A conqueror. :-)
> To argue that the arms trade, or indeed most "business" is
> separate from politics, and worse still morality is something that I
> feel is profoundly wrong.
>
Trades of any kind and politics always goes hand in hand.
Morality is entirly a seperate issue.
> Phil
--
- Alex / blowfish.(Have Fun with geek's culture: Part-1.)
--
- If Vi is God's editor. Then, God must have too much free time on his
hands,
lives a very dull and unproductive life; so he needs Vi to waste his
time.
But Vi was still too fast. So God created EMACS on the 8th day - which
takes
Eight Months to load, And Counting Still...
- The UN-GEEK CODE:(?What is a
geek?)-#!?+++??++++|$????+++++?????+++!!!!???+++---
geek + vi | ~/emacs
==>ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!!!!!!!!!!.......:P~
newbies + Windoz | C:\LOOKOUT
EXPRESS==>_the_horrors_the_horrrrrrrroOOOOORRRRRRRRRSSSSsssss!!! :-|
- My SAS (Sing-A-Song) Fingerprint -v.i007.bond: Doe1(-a deer, a female
deer.) RaY2(- a drop of golden sun.)
Me3(- A name, I call myself.) FAr4(- A long, long way to run.) Sew5(-A
needle pulling thread.)
lA6(-A note to follow sew.) TeA7(-A drink with jam and bread.) That
will bring us back to DOe-oh-oh-oh...
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Svend Olaf Mikkelsen)
Subject: Re: Almost Lost New Hard Drive After Linux Install
Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 19:44:49 GMT
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bob Hauck) wrote:
>I'm afraid that my copy of "man fdisk" does not contain this text. It
>does contain this though:
>
>BUGS
> There are several *fdisk programs around. Each has its
> problems and strengths. Try them in the order cfdisk,
> fdisk, sfdisk.
>
>None of the manpages for these versions of fdisk contains the text you
>quoted. Perhaps you have a very old copy of fdisk? My manpage is
>dated 11 June 1998.
You can get a newer Fdisk version at
http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/utils/util-linux/
>If your theory of "cyclic partitions" were correct in general for large
>disks, then we would be hearing the screams of pain from all quarters.
>Instead, we hear only from people with old BIOS.
I have a BIOS that supports large disks, and a 9670 MB harddisk.
According to Linux fdisk the partition tables look like this:
Disk /dev/hdc: 255 heads, 63 sectors, 1232 cylinders
Units = cylinders of 16065 * 512 bytes
Device Boot Start End Blocks Id System
/dev/hdc1 * 127 256 1044193+ 6 FAT16
/dev/hdc2 257 512 2056320 7 HPFS/NTFS
/dev/hdc3 513 768 2056320 16 Hidden FAT16
/dev/hdc4 1024 1232 1678792+ 5 Extended
/dev/hdc5 1024 1029 48163+ 82 Linux swap
/dev/hdc6 1030 1200 1373526 83 Linux
I cannot boot DOS when this disk is in the system, not even from
floppy. Why?
--
Svend Olaf
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Peter Bismuti)
Subject: reclaiming master boo block?
Date: 7 Aug 2000 19:44:24 GMT
I tried installing win98 on a dos partition and overwrote
the MBR, I booted using a floppy and then ran lilo as root, but it
still wants to boot into win98.
Is there any way of reclaiming it without reinstalling?
Thanks
------------------------------
From: blowfish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ..
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.setup,gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: FWD: Red Hat's CFO abandoning ship.
Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 12:54:01 -0700
Robert Krawitz wrote:
>
> blowfish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> > John Hasler wrote:
> > >
> > > blowfish writes:
> > > > Copyright does not interfers with free market.
> > >
> > > The express purpose of copyright is to suppress the free market in copies
> > > of copyrighted works.
> >
> > Here we go again!
> >
> > The express purpose of copyright is to keep the *FREE LOADERS* away. So,
> > the copyright owner can sell his/her work in the FREE MARKET, or allow
> > it to be used under their own FREE will.
> >
> > Kapish!
>
> No, because the definition of a "free market" says nothing about "free
> loaders" one way or the other.
>
Free market means just that: The Freedom to Trade with who ever and
whatever (within legal limits) you want.
It does not mean *MONEY FREE*.
> Everyone's a free loader to some extent, in that they use the
> infrastructure that exists. People free load from the day they're
> born -- it couldn't be otherwise, a human infant cannot take care of
> itself. We don't as individuals all have to go out and grow our own
> food, hunt our own meat, build our own tools to chop down our own
> trees to build our own houses.
>
C'mon. You're on your twisty thinking again.
An infant can never be classify as a free-loader, because the infant
didn't asked to be born.
So. Whoever give birth to the infant have the responsibility and duty to
care for the infant until the infant can be on his/her own.
Even wild animals take care of their babies better than some human
parents.
No. You don't have to hunt animal for meat if you don't want to. But you
can do that too if you decided so.
You don't have to build tools to chop down trees to build your own
house, but you can do that too if you wanted to.
But you have to make money (that is, creating, working on something for
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$) so you can have somebody else to do those work for
you.
> There are a lot of people who seem more concerned about people free
> loading than they are about simply living comfortably themselves. I
> honestly believe that a lot of people would willingly reduce their own
> standard of living if only it would get rid of "free loaders". That's
> the theory behind a lot of silly tax shelters: people would rather
> reduce their after-tax income if it means paying less taxes to begin
> with.
>
I've no problem with living comfortably... but I do have problems with
free loaders, because their "free stuff" are partially supported by my
tax dollars.
I don't mind to donate to causes that I believe in. But *NOT* to support
those damned free loaders.
They're just a bunch of parasites.
> --
> Robert Krawitz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://www.tiac.net/users/rlk/
>
> Tall Clubs International -- http://www.tall.org/ or 1-888-IM-TALL-2
> Member of the League for Programming Freedom -- mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Project lead for The Gimp Print -- http://gimp-print.sourceforge.net
>
> "Linux doesn't dictate how I work, I dictate how Linux works."
> --Eric Crampton
--
- Alex / blowfish.(Have Fun with geek's culture: Part-1.)
--
- If Vi is God's editor. Then, God must have too much free time on his
hands,
lives a very dull and unproductive life; so he needs Vi to waste his
time.
But Vi was still too fast. So God created EMACS on the 8th day - which
takes
Eight Months to load, And Counting Still...
- The UN-GEEK CODE:(?What is a
geek?)-#!?+++??++++|$????+++++?????+++!!!!???+++---
geek + vi | ~/emacs
==>ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!!!!!!!!!!.......:P~
newbies + Windoz | C:\LOOKOUT
EXPRESS==>_the_horrors_the_horrrrrrrroOOOOORRRRRRRRRSSSSsssss!!! :-|
- My SAS (Sing-A-Song) Fingerprint -v.i007.bond: Doe1(-a deer, a female
deer.) RaY2(- a drop of golden sun.)
Me3(- A name, I call myself.) FAr4(- A long, long way to run.) Sew5(-A
needle pulling thread.)
lA6(-A note to follow sew.) TeA7(-A drink with jam and bread.) That
will bring us back to DOe-oh-oh-oh...
------------------------------
From: blowfish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ..
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.setup,gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: FWD: Red Hat's CFO abandoning ship.
Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 12:56:17 -0700
phil hunt wrote:
>
> On Fri, 04 Aug 2000 15:16:22 -0700, blowfish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >phil hunt wrote:
> >> > No. You're incorrect.
> >> >
> >> >Copyright does not interfers with free market. In fact, copy rights
> >> >support free market. Because the copyrights owner can sell his/her work
> >> >any which ways s/he wants.
> >>
> >> Yes, and other people can't. So it isn't free. A free market implies lots
> >> of independent buyers asnd sellers. The *whole* point of copyright is to
> >> give someone an artificial monopoly in a good.
> >>
> >Yes. A free market implies lots of buyers and sellers.
> >
> >BUT.......
> >
> >It never implies that anybody can sell anything which they don't own, or
> >created, or have legal title to.
> >
> >That's why you cannot sell stolen property in Harrod's, or set up shop
> >on Union Street, or the Piccadily Square; or put up a booth right
> >outside of 10, Downing Street, in London.
>
> But I could make a house that's an exact copy of 10 downing street, and
> sell that!
>
No. You can't. At least not in the US.
> Assume copyright doesn't exist: Then if I, on media that I do own, make a
> copy of some information, then I am selling something I do own.
>
Yes, you can sell as many copies, or give them away for free if you're
the creator of that thingy.
> --
> *****[ Phil Hunt ]*****
> ** The RIAA want to ban Napster -- so boycott the music industry! **
> ** Don't buy CDs during August; see http://boycott-riaa.com/ **
> ** Spread the word: Put this message in your sig. **
>
>
--
- Alex / blowfish.(Have Fun with geek's culture: Part-1.)
--
- If Vi is God's editor. Then, God must have too much free time on his
hands,
lives a very dull and unproductive life; so he needs Vi to waste his
time.
But Vi was still too fast. So God created EMACS on the 8th day - which
takes
Eight Months to load, And Counting Still...
- The UN-GEEK CODE:(?What is a
geek?)-#!?+++??++++|$????+++++?????+++!!!!???+++---
geek + vi | ~/emacs
==>ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!!!!!!!!!!.......:P~
newbies + Windoz | C:\LOOKOUT
EXPRESS==>_the_horrors_the_horrrrrrrroOOOOORRRRRRRRRSSSSsssss!!! :-|
- My SAS (Sing-A-Song) Fingerprint -v.i007.bond: Doe1(-a deer, a female
deer.) RaY2(- a drop of golden sun.)
Me3(- A name, I call myself.) FAr4(- A long, long way to run.) Sew5(-A
needle pulling thread.)
lA6(-A note to follow sew.) TeA7(-A drink with jam and bread.) That
will bring us back to DOe-oh-oh-oh...
------------------------------
From: Neil Zanella <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: xv bugs
Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 17:31:46 -0230
Hello,
I found the following bugs with xv:
1) If I use xv to view a gif image which has a transparent background
then when I save the gif the transparent background is saved as
some other color.
2) xv is unable to display X pixmaps whose definition includes the const
qualifier (I don't know whether the const qualifier is allowed in
the standard definition of an XPM but I have seen it there some times)
I don't know where I should report these bugs
so I thought I'd post them here.
P.S. Is xv still shareware? I have not seen any updates to the software
in years.
Thanks,
Neil
------------------------------
From: blowfish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ..
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.setup,gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: FWD: Red Hat's CFO abandoning ship.
Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 13:07:48 -0700
Robert Krawitz wrote:
>
> blowfish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> > phil hunt wrote:
>
> > > Yes, and other people can't. So it isn't free. A free market implies lots
> > > of independent buyers asnd sellers. The *whole* point of copyright is to
> > > give someone an artificial monopoly in a good.
> > >
> > Yes. A free market implies lots of buyers and sellers.
> >
> > BUT.......
> >
> > It never implies that anybody can sell anything which they don't own, or
> > created, or have legal title to.
>
> This is a circular argument, and not really relevant to what we're
> talking about anyway.
>
No. I'm not. It's all those "everything must be free" folks are going
round and round in circles.
> As for the relevance part: just because a market is illegal doesn't
> make it not fit the definition of a free market.
>
> The claim at hand is that copyright interferes with the workings of a
> truly free market by forbidding others from making copies and selling
> them (giving one person an artificial monopoly in the good).
>
If you are not the owner/creator of that object. Then, you have no right
to sell, modify or do anything with it without the owner/creator's
permission. Period.
> A free market implies free dealing among informed, competitive buyers
> and sellers, with freedom to enter and exit the market. A copyright
> distorts this by forbidding other potential sellers from joining the
> market. Therefore, there cannot be a competitive market for, say,
> Microsoft Windows, because only one entity is allowed to sell it.
> Someone else cannot (legally) enter the market selling their own
> copies of it. Nor can someone enter the market for variants of
> Windows, because copyright covers derived works as well as original
> works.
>
Oh you know what!? GNU-GPL and Micro$oft are not the only things that
matter in this world.
GNU-GPL-Linux and M$ are *ONLY* important issue to mostly the college
geeks.
Nobody cares about either in the normal, human world.
People will use whatever is popular and convinent.
> So the argument that copyright doesn't destroy the free market because
> those potential other sellers cannot enter the market because it's not
> legal is circular: it's the presence of copyright law in the first
> place that forbids it.
>
Free loaders *destroy* the free market, Not the copyrights law.
> That isn't in and of itself saying that copyright is bad, or that it's
> good. I am not a libertarian; I don't believe that free markets are
> an end unto themselves. Free markets tend to have problems where
> there are external effects not accountable for in the market. For
> example, someone entering the chemical business sets up a plant that
> pollutes the air. The market for chemicals doesn't take this into
> account.
>
> The idea behind copyright is that the absence of this restriction the
> price that can be charged for the good in question is low enough so
> that it discourages the creation of new works, and that greater
> creation of new works outweighs the loss in freedom and the higher
> prices paid by buyers. The marginal cost of production of another
> copy of a book (much less an MP3) is tiny, so in the absence of
> copyright, the original creators of a song or program would never be
> able to recover their investment.
>
> The latter is surely true. I'm never going to recover my investment
> in gimp-print (time, ink cartridges, paper). But on the other hand,
> money isn't what motivated me to do it; having it available to allow
> people (not least of whom is myself) to print under Linux/UNIX is. I
> think copyright goes too far in the other direction and ignores the
> inherent creativity that lurks in many people.
>
All I can say is: Take your arguement to a *real* business person, and
to court... ;-)
You geeks are totally twisted... foo.bar.clueless.life!
> --
> Robert Krawitz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://www.tiac.net/users/rlk/
>
> Tall Clubs International -- http://www.tall.org/ or 1-888-IM-TALL-2
> Member of the League for Programming Freedom -- mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Project lead for The Gimp Print -- http://gimp-print.sourceforge.net
>
> "Linux doesn't dictate how I work, I dictate how Linux works."
> --Eric Crampton
--
- Alex / blowfish.(Have Fun with geek's culture: Part-1.)
--
- If Vi is God's editor. Then, God must have too much free time on his
hands,
lives a very dull and unproductive life; so he needs Vi to waste his
time.
But Vi was still too fast. So God created EMACS on the 8th day - which
takes
Eight Months to load, And Counting Still...
- The UN-GEEK CODE:(?What is a
geek?)-#!?+++??++++|$????+++++?????+++!!!!???+++---
geek + vi | ~/emacs
==>ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!!!!!!!!!!.......:P~
newbies + Windoz | C:\LOOKOUT
EXPRESS==>_the_horrors_the_horrrrrrrroOOOOORRRRRRRRRSSSSsssss!!! :-|
- My SAS (Sing-A-Song) Fingerprint -v.i007.bond: Doe1(-a deer, a female
deer.) RaY2(- a drop of golden sun.)
Me3(- A name, I call myself.) FAr4(- A long, long way to run.) Sew5(-A
needle pulling thread.)
lA6(-A note to follow sew.) TeA7(-A drink with jam and bread.) That
will bring us back to DOe-oh-oh-oh...
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