Meh... I should probably continue... On Sun, Feb 6, 2011 at 12:50, Paul <[email protected]> wrote: > Lies and distortions in Roy's post include: > > "Debian is not for everybody." > Does Debian check IPs and say, no you cannot download it we don't like you?
Really... are you THAT literal? I would like to think you're more intelligent than that and can understand the idea behind an allusion like that than to take it at literal face value. > "It is not newbie friendly" > http://wiki.debian.org/DebianEdu/Documentation/Lenny/GettingStarted > I'm sure some sick and twisted Debian user put that page up as a joke right? > Well Roy is sure! That's assuming Debian is already installed. http://wiki.debian.org/DebianInstall That page does NOT look terribly newbie friendly to me... In fact, finding ACTUAL step-by-step installation instructions using the wiki you provided is not quite a simple as it would seem. The obvious starting place "How to install Debian" does not actually tell you how to install. It just tells you about installation media and that you can use something called debootstrap to install from inside another OS. Yeah, someone new to Linux is going to get that pretty easily. And I say that ironically as someone who has taught Intro Linux at the college level as well as within corporate environments. > "the community does not embrace change nor new users." > http://www.osnews.com/story/24378/Debian_6_0_Released > > "They want to keep things the way they always were and even turn back the > clock." > See above. Without getting into arguments about technical decisions, I present only the first paragraph of your OSN story (Capitalization emphasis is mine): Oh glorious day! After TWO YEARS of development, one of the prime Linux distributions has pushed out a new release - Debian 6.0 'Squeeze' has been released. The most fascinating aspect fo this new release is that it includes Debian/kFreeBSD s a technology preview, which fascinates me to no end. Of course, there's a whole lot more, including a brand new website for the project - the FIRST MAJOR REDESIGN IN 13 YEARS. That alone speaks of a reluctance to change... or at least change quickly. Especially given arguably the most popular desktop distro in the world, Debian based Ubuntu on a 6 month release schedule, and Red Hat on something like an 8 month schedule, roughly, with SuSE at about 12 months roughly. 2 years is forever in the OS world. > They do not like it that Ubuntu has taken their work and made it accessible > to others. > http://ianmurdock.com/debian/ubuntu-vs-debian-reprise/ I'll give you this one. Debian and Ubuntu have become a lot closer and are a lot friendlier than they used to be. Historically, Roy is correct, and the Debian community still harbors some resentment even today, though both sides are actively working to fix that issue. > "Debian is what it is and it isn't going to change anytime soon" > News flash Roy it just did! > http://www.osnews.com/story/24378/Debian_6_0_Released Again, it just did after two years. (or 13 for the website) > I (Roy) know the community well > No you don't. You think you know. My post proves over and over just how > little you actually do know. I think that you are some sort of a Microsoft > employed paid shill from the FUD astroturfing > you did. Except it was so inept. All you've proven is that you're taking this way too personally, and are just so quick to start throwing baseless ad hominem attacks against someone you only know from a few postings on the internet. > "they are on a crusade and to them all outsiders are regarded as infidels." > This makes so little sense I could find no web link to debunk it. It sounds > like xenophobic inferiority complex nonsense to me though. Must be a common > Canadian condition. If you know the community as well as you do, then you would know that the Debian community has traditionally been rather insular especially WRT other distros and communities out there. This is changing over time as the Debian community grows, but traditionally, while Roy's comment is a bit inflammatory, it's not incorrect. And no different from the GNU community's actions and perception within the greater Linux community either. Let's not get this wrong. Debian has a very rich and thriving community that is growing by leaps and bounds... but the old guard ARE rather insular and view outsiders perhaps not as infidel but as gai-jin. > "it is not made to work out of the box" > Funny it works here. > root@spot:~# cat /etc/debian_version > 5.0.8 Yeah, I'll give you this one too... No OS is made to fail out of the box. Points here. > My smoking new Squeeze box is upstairs. > http://global.phoronix-test-suite.com/index.php?k=profile&u=anon-22625-10502-30022 > > That's right, we bad! > > "work like Ubuntu with advanced features." > http://www.debianadmin.com/ > > "It is for advanced users who like a basic setup." > I do not see how any user would not like the option of choosing a basic > initial configuration. None of my setups remain basic for very long I can > assure you. Do any of your computers CNC > control? One of my Debian systems does! > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgbeyNNBZ68 And this just proves that you are NOT the typical new user. The typical new user today is a kid, or someone's parent. It's not someone capable of creating a CNC control system. Yes there ARE rocket scientists who become new users, but the vast majority is NOT that adept. When judging the ability of a group, you have to judge by the weakest members of that group, not the strongest. Consider the old proverb "A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link". My mom is terribly intelligent. High IQ, Mensa member, nationally recognized Cardiac Critical Care RN, 30 years of experience in Intensive and Cardiac Critical Care, and she still confuses the terms "Install" and "Download". She has tried Fedora, Red Hat, and SuSE and could not install any of them, nor use them, without extensive assistance, and eventually giving up and going back to Windows. My Mom DID, however, download and install Ubuntu on her own, set up Wireless, install Chrome, and have a fully running Linux system and has not asked for tech support ONE TIME. Ubuntu is Debian for new users. That's not an insult to Debian. In fact, it should be considered as a plus to Debian as it will eventually grow the greater Debian community even more as SOME of those new Linux users who are introduced to the Linux world via Ubuntu (arguably the most popular desktop Linux distro) will migrate into Debian at some point as their knowledge and curiosity grow. > "It will likely never work as well" > A likely story if I ever heard one. Systems only work as well as they are > administered. Another point to you... I agree. > "anything proprietary is bad" > Such a crude statement as to be meaningless. I will say this, I have > installed commercial proprietary software in Debian using Debian's package > management tools quite nicely thank you very > much. If Roy had any skill what so ever he could too, even in KUbuntu! I'm not going to touch this one. I don't know how easy it is to install proprietary drivers in Debian. I know that in Ubuntu it's as simple as enabling the restricted repo (by running a simple GUI tool) and picking up the driver you need. If Debian makes installing proprietary drivers for things like video and network cards this simple, then certainly kudos to Debian. > I designed all of the electronics for my CNC experiment in Debian using Eagle. > > http://www.cadsoftusa.com/ <-- Not Free! > > http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/1819/ppbb4sch.png > http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/5841/tb6560ahqa.png And that's really really cool... but again, I'd dare say that a fair number of Linux users and a large majority of NEW Linux users couldn't have done that. But your project is really awesome! > And using my Nvidia binary kernel driver too. Which I installed using > Debian's synaptic package manager. But Roy says it isn't so! > > http://wiki.debian.org/NvidiaGraphicsDrivers#non-freedrivers However, getting back to the Newbie argument... kernel module installation via CLI is NOT a newbie level task. It's more along the lines of ... somewhat familiar with Linux. So, tell me this... if I am a brand new Linux user and my FIRST EVER linux distro is going to be Debian, but I have an nVidia GT260M card that runs very poorly, if at all with nouveau, how do I get my system installed with the proprietary driver? Can I install the wl driver during install via the debian installer? Easily? In an obvious way that anyone with fingers and a mouse can accomplish? Or does it rely on me doing something seemingly arcane via CLI that most new users are going to be utterly unfamiliar with? > "if you ask for help doing something that they regard as verboten the (sic) > you will get a lecture at best and a tongue lashing at worst." > It is all in how you ask. Point. And it's the same for most Linux communities... (except for the Ubuntu community, which as far as I have seen go out of their way to make people feel welcome regardless of how they phrase a question). > Now Roy I'd think that even a canuk would have the sense enough not to chop > down the trunk of a tree when they were standing out on one of it's limbs but > I guess I was wrong there. And now you're insulting Canadians in general? Really? You imply here that somehow, Americans are more intelligent than Canadians but even a dumb Canadian should now better than to undercut his own foundation? I know some pretty damn smart Canadians and I laugh at your ridiculous generalization. > Insist on the truth, insist on the best, insist on Debian! And don't listen > to people from Canada named Roy ... At least when it comes to Debian. And here we have it. You again simply give credence to the arugment that the Debian community has a superiority complex and cast yourself as a zealot. You have basically destroyed any credibility you had with this statement despite the fact that some of your arguments are correct. I think you should consider re-writing your post in a manner that actually would help your case, rather than undermine it using inflammatory remarks and flinging insults at a nation and a single man. Cheers, Jeff ------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from this list, please email [email protected] & you will be removed.Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LINUX_Newbies/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LINUX_Newbies/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
