Ben: Not justifying Nazi. Just stating fact as recounted on The Military Channel. "U-boat War in the Atlantic". Plays various times. Our firing on U-boats documented. As was Donitz response.
You are apparently looking to pick a fight and I simply don't care. Glad you're not my cosultant. Will not respond further. No need. You know more than the experts writing the documentary. Gregg S/V Neverland Sent from my iPhone On Mar 2, 2011, at 11:52 AM, Ben Okopnik <b...@okopnik.com> wrote: > On Wed, Mar 02, 2011 at 10:57:41AM -0600, Gregg Dennhardt wrote: >> Norm: >> >> Dornitz had standing instructions early in the war for his U-Boat >> Captains to give aid. > > I'm not sure where you got that idea, but it makes no sense whatsoever. > A U-boat - which is a small, confined environment which is already > cramped to the maximum - cannot render anything resembling useful aid to > a ship that they just sank, which may have had hundreds of men aboard. > In addition (and I had occassion to read the > "Unterseebootkommandantenhandbuch", the "U-Boat Commander's Handbook", > fairly recently), the Germans were very aware of just how vulnerable a > U-Boat was, and that it could be disabled by even minimal damage such as > produced by small-arms fire; there's no possible way that they would > have been told to closely approach an enemy who was not completely > disabled - i.e., dead. The instructions in the U.Kdt.Hdb., e.g., those > for taking a ship as a prize, make that exceptionally clear. > >> But as I recall this was taken back when Allies >> straffed a U-Boat doing so off if Africa. They had communicated their >> intent but apparently this never was received by our Air Crews. The >> mistake, afterwards, resulted in no more aid being offered. > > I'm going to grant you the benefit of the doubt here, and say that > you're laboring under a misconception (rather than trying to apologize > for the "noble" Nazis.) There was nothing like a pretty "honor among > gentlemen" agreement implied in this type of warfare; sub warfare was > *intended* to be as furtive as possible, and striking with no warning > was not a preference but the only possible means of sinking the Allied > ships and murdering the men aboard. Again, this is made exceptionally > clear in the sub manual. > > This is not a comment on modern Germans, but the people who initiated > the use of poison gas in warfare can have no possible claim on anything > like honor or fairness. The "noble Aryan race" was just a myth, and one > that was more poisonous than that gas in its effects, both for Germany > and the rest of the world. Trying to ascribe high motives to them is, at > the very least, macabre and distasteful. > >> As for the monstrosities you are correct. Iin war all sides of a >> conflict often engage in such. > > We aren't discussing a tit-for-tat, "both sides" situation; there's a > reason that shooting a criminal in your house is not called "murder" but > "self-defense". Germany began a war of aggression, and practiced almost > every evil known to man: genocide, wholesale murder, organized torture, > on and on. Vileness of the sort that the Nazis brought into being > deserved to be stamped out by any means whatsoever - and the people who > destroyed them, no matter the means, are heroes. I won't go into the > details, but I am completely clear on the meaning of what I've said: *no > matter the means*. > > Yes, horrible things are done in war. I know all about it; my father was > in it (they dug 20 shell fragments out of him, and had to leave 2 of > them in, since they were too close to the brain for wartime surgery to > be of use), and my uncle died at the front. I'm a Russian Jew of a > generation that was directly affected by WWII; I had relatives who died > in the labor camps, I've seen the ruins of the cities - *every single > person I knew growing up* had lost someone. Try to comprehend the scope > of that. That's a bit different from reading about it in books, where > you can draw any picture you like; reality is stark and exceptionally > clear, and doesn't leave much to the imagination. > > I suggest that it would be best to avoid saying anything that even > smells of justification for the Nazis' acts. They're not in any way > defensible. > > > Ben > -- > OKOPNIK CONSULTING > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming > 443-250-7895 http://okopnik.com http://twitter.com/okopnik > _______________________________________________ > Liveaboard mailing list > Liveaboard@liveaboardonline.com > To adjust your membership settings over the web > http://liveaboardonline.com/mailman/listinfo/liveaboard > To subscribe send an email to liveaboard-j...@liveaboardonline.com > > To unsubscribe send an email to liveaboard-le...@liveaboardonline.com > The archives are at http://www.liveaboardonline.com/pipermail/liveaboard/ > > To search the archives > http://www.mail-archive.com/liveaboard@liveaboardnow.org > > The Mailman Users Guide can be found here > http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman/mailman-member/index.html _______________________________________________ Liveaboard mailing list Liveaboard@liveaboardonline.com To adjust your membership settings over the web http://liveaboardonline.com/mailman/listinfo/liveaboard To subscribe send an email to liveaboard-j...@liveaboardonline.com To unsubscribe send an email to liveaboard-le...@liveaboardonline.com The archives are at http://www.liveaboardonline.com/pipermail/liveaboard/ To search the archives http://www.mail-archive.com/liveaboard@liveaboardnow.org The Mailman Users Guide can be found here http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman/mailman-member/index.html
