OK. I guess I am fine with the bounce messages. Any other opinions? Ralph
> On Mar 18, 2017, at 8:42 AM, Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com> wrote: > > I got this response from Gavin: > > Hi [~jvz] Sorry but I think I'm going to push back on that last request. > > Merging the lists - no problem > Merging all the subscribers - no problem > Creating bounce messages directing people to use the merged target list - no > problem > > People will know in advance this merger is going to take place, and if they > forget I think it'll take only one or two bounce messages to get the hint. > > If you are :- > > a) Happy with that - pick a date this can be done , let all lists users know > this is happening and the date then let me know. > b) Not Happy with that - ping this ticket again and we'll escalate further. > > Thanks > > On 16 March 2017 at 22:23, Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com > <mailto:boa...@gmail.com>> wrote: > Oh, I didn't realise I had a response on how to handle that. Let me follow up > with infra. > > On 16 March 2017 at 21:46, Ralph Goers <ralph.go...@dslextreme.com > <mailto:ralph.go...@dslextreme.com>> wrote: > Is there any follow-up to this? > > Ralph > >> On Mar 12, 2017, at 9:30 PM, Ralph Goers <ralph.go...@dslextreme.com >> <mailto:ralph.go...@dslextreme.com>> wrote: >> >> 1. That seems fine to me. >> 2. Is it possible to do both? I like the idea of annoying the sender but >> still allowing the email to be sent. It would cool if it could even add >> [list] to the start of the subject line. >> 3. This is the main thing that needs to happen. >> >> Ralph >> >> >> >>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 7:49 PM, Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com >>> <mailto:boa...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>> >>> Some things: >>> >>> 1. Archives won't be merged. >>> 2. Infra suggests it might be a better idea to have the old email addresses >>> respond with a canned reply saying that the lists have moved over to dev@, >>> though they can set it up all as aliases if we prefer. >>> 3. Current subscribers from all dev lists would be automatically subscribed >>> to the combined list. >>> >>> So, use aliases or have the old addresses bounce back and inform senders to >>> use the new list? >>> >>> On 12 March 2017 at 18:31, Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com >>> <mailto:boa...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>> Created a request, not sure if it's public: >>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651 >>> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651> >>> >>> On 12 March 2017 at 17:11, Ralph Goers <ralph.go...@dslextreme.com >>> <mailto:ralph.go...@dslextreme.com>> wrote: >>> Yes, >>> >>> If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it. >>> >>> Ralph >>> >>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com >>>> <mailto:boa...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>>> >>>> The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and >>>> discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the >>>> user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now? >>>> >>>> On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dpsen...@gmail.com >>>> <mailto:dpsen...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>>> Total agreement. >>>> >>>> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ralph.go...@dslextreme.com >>>> <mailto:ralph.go...@dslextreme.com>> wrote: >>>> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses dropped >>>> the other lists. This is a horrible way to have discussions that affect >>>> all the sub projects. >>>> >>>> Ralph >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com >>>>> <mailto:boa...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects. Gary >>>>> mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for >>>>> his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects. >>>>> >>>>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and C++) >>>>> aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures >>>>> and plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive >>>>> conversations about this would be great. >>>>> >>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mikael.stal...@magine.com >>>>> <mailto:mikael.stal...@magine.com>> wrote: >>>>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the languages >>>>> we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the subprojects. >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsen...@gmail.com >>>>> <mailto:dpsen...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging projects to >>>>> become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a very >>>>> similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache >>>>> Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification >>>>> implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all >>>>> the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good >>>>> reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same >>>>> use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing >>>>> lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just >>>>> quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow: >>>>> >>>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before that >>>>> about two weeks ago >>>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic before >>>>> that a month ago >>>>> >>>>> Cheers >>>>> >>>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote: >>>>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might be >>>>>> of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just >>>>>> release announcements. >>>>>> >>>>>> Ralph >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com >>>>>>> <mailto:boa...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't >>>>>>> cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should >>>>>>> merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all >>>>>>> devs to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't >>>>>>> know what that list is for). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ralph.go...@dslextreme.com >>>>>>> <mailto:ralph.go...@dslextreme.com>> wrote: >>>>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are >>>>>>> “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists >>>>>>> separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would >>>>>>> need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ralph >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsen...@gmail.com >>>>>>>> <mailto:dpsen...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so >>>>>>>> that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to >>>>>>>> summarize the current state of the vote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> >>>>>>>> d...@logging.apache.org <mailto:d...@logging.apache.org> >>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1 >>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1 >>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1 >>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1 >>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0 >>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0 >>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1 >>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1 >>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Totals so far: >>>>>>>> +1: 5 >>>>>>>> +0: 1 >>>>>>>> -0: 2 >>>>>>>> -1: 1 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> >>>>>>>> u...@logging.apache.org <mailto:u...@logging.apache.org> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1 >>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1 >>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1 >>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1 >>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0 >>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0 >>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1 >>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1 >>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Totals so far: >>>>>>>> +1: 3 >>>>>>>> +0: 0 >>>>>>>> -0: 2 >>>>>>>> -1: 4 >>>>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote: >>>>>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to >>>>>>>>> half of them less than five minutes ago. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing >>>>>>>>> lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> >>>>>>>>> d...@logging.apache.org <mailto:d...@logging.apache.org> >>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> >>>>>>>>> u...@logging.apache.org <mailto:u...@logging.apache.org> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases >>>>>>>>> for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To >>>>>>>>> distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> [java] >>>>>>>>> [net] >>>>>>>>> [cxx] >>>>>>>>> [php] >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help >>>>>>>>> in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Voting: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists! >>>>>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much. >>>>>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it. >>>>>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, >>>>>>>>> no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will >>>>>>>>> be open for at least 72 hours. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com <mailto:boa...@gmail.com>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com <mailto:boa...@gmail.com>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Mikael Ståldal >>>>> Senior software developer >>>>> >>>>> Magine TV >>>>> mikael.stal...@magine.com <mailto:mikael.stal...@magine.com> >>>>> Grev Turegatan 3 | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden | www.magine.com >>>>> <http://www.magine.com/> >>>>> >>>>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this >>>>> message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message >>>>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you may >>>>> not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, >>>>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply >>>>> email. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com <mailto:boa...@gmail.com>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com <mailto:boa...@gmail.com>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com <mailto:boa...@gmail.com>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com <mailto:boa...@gmail.com>> >> > > > > > -- > Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com <mailto:boa...@gmail.com>> > > > > -- > Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com <mailto:boa...@gmail.com>>
