Marion, Thank you - but I'm not sure ths is really relevant - in particular what authority composed the Webster's entry? rgds M "Dr. Marion Ceruti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: To clarify the semantics, one can refer to the following definitions from Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary:
Guitar - "a flat-bodied stringed instrument with a long fretted neck and usually six strings plucked with a pick or with the fingers." Lute - "a stringed instrument with a large pear-shaped body, a neck with fretted fingerboard, and a head with pegs for tuning." Interestingly enough, there is no requirement for a guitar to have exactly six strings, this being only the usual case. Therefore, it is not possible to conclude that any instrument is a guitar or not a guitar simply by counting the number of strings. Both lutes and guitar must have frets but the definitions do not specify the material from which the frets must be made, nor do they comment on whether or not the frets can be moved. (One can surmise from the definition that an Arabian ood, which has no frets, is not a lute in the exact sense of the word, but a different closely related instrument.) The Hoffmann instrument in question fits the American-English definition of a lute. The specific kind of a lute is a different question. It is not a guitar because it does not have a flat body. If anyone has a UK-English dictionary I would like to know the exact wording of their definitions, whether they are the same or different. In any case, this is how we use these words it in the NEW country. My warmest regards to all, Marion -----Original Message----- From: Martyn Hodgson Sent: Mar 16, 2005 11:48 AM To: Roman Turovsky Cc: Lute Net Subject: Re: Hoffmann Mandora/Gallichon Thank you Roman, in short - a guitar M Roman Turovsky wrote: A lautenguitarre of sorts, REMARCABLY with original double-strung set-up. The main visual difference between gallichones and lautengitarren is the BRIDGE POSITION, lute-like for the former, guitar-like for the latter. The instrument in question has overall proportions and provenance of a gallichone, but with that obvious "improvement". RT ______________ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv > In that case - what do you think it was converted to? > > M > > Roman Turovsky wrote: >> I agree this is a possibility; as you know, I think the weight of evidence is >> otherwise. But are you seriously suggesting that this was made or converted >> to its present state in the period when the Gallichon/Colachon was played in >> the 18thC? >> Martyn > No. I'd say it was bastardized sometime into the 19th century. > RT > > >> Roman Turovsky wrote: >>> In my opinion >> WHich is a bit "leaky" as we say in the old country. >> >> >> >>> how it could be used is more important than what you call it. >>> Depending on how you tune a six-course instrument, it could function as >>> a guitar, requinto (actually a "requinto" lute in this case), renaissance >>> lute, >>> a laud, or a mandolino lombardo ottavo. >> FYI, Hoffmann was a very important figure in the history of lute, and there >> is no reason to inflict on him any abuse by linguistic daftness. >> >> This was a gallichone (100% certainty, look at the neck and pegbox), which >> suffered bridge displacement which is sadly not atypical. Both Budapest >> Jauch and Brunner baroque lutes suffered this at some point during the 19th >> century. >> RT >> -- >> http://polyhymnion.org/torban >> >> >> >> >> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Martyn Hodgson >>> Sent: Mar 16, 2005 1:05 AM >>> To: Mathias R? >>> Cc: Lute Net >>> Subject: Re: Hoffmann Mandora/Gallichon >>> >>> >>> Thank you for your comments Mathias, but: >>> >>> - are you not aware that guitars were made in lute shape in the 19thC (and >>> in >>> other shapes as well for that matter - eg lyre guitar). >>> >>> - defining a guitar as a 'shallow bodied' instrument is surely asking for >>> trouble - probably better to relate to musical practice - ie lute-guitars >>> and >>> similar played music written for ordinary guitars. Even well into the last >>> century it was possible to buy sheet music asking for 'laute' or 'gitarre'. >>> I >>> have before me an original edition (c 1930) of 'Leonardo de Call/Notturno >>> Op89/fur Flote(Geige), Bratsche and Gitarre(Laute)' published by Chr >>> Friedrich Vieweg >>> /BerlinLichterfelds. Interestingly, the cover has two figures playing Lauten >>> (not Gitarren). >>> >>> I therefore stick to my opinion that this is probably a guitar conversion. >>> You >>> may, of course, hold an entirely different view but perhaps it would be >>> useful to support it with evidence rather than unsubstantiated comment. >>> >>> regards, >>> >>> Martyn >>> >>> "Mathias R?" wrote: >>>>> My view is that it is most likely a guitar >>> >>> guitars have shallow bodies, by definition, or so I'm told. Whatsoever >>> this is, it is not a guitar. >>> >>>>> (or rather late 19thC german lute/guitar) conversion direct from a >>> lute. >>> >>> wandervogel lutes (if that is what you meant to say) have single >>> strings, not courses (i.e. double strings) >>> >>>>> There are numerous examples of 18thC Colachons/mandoras (see Gill et >>> als) >>> >>> indeed. Why so much guesswork if the probable is so obvious. >>> >>>> I would have thought so, if not for the pegbox, which is rather elegant, >>>> and >>>> entirely uncharacteristic of the Wandervogels. >>> >>> yes, indeed. >>> >>> -- >>> Regards, >>> >>> Mathias >>> >>> -- >>> >>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> >>> Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com >>> -- >>> >>> >> >> >> >> Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com >> -- > > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com -- Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com --
