"Christopher Schaub" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb:
> > I haven't heard anyone play
> > thumb-under faster than top rate classical or flamenco guitarists whose
> > technique is not that different from thumb-out, especially in regards to
> imim
The kind of speed flamenco guitarists have with imim, I believe has
a great deal to do with playing with nails. Sor, wrote a duet for Aguado
and himself, and gave the fast part to Agado, because he played with nails.
I believe Sor played with thumb out lute technique, resting the LF on
the top, and forbidding the use of A finger except in chords, and using
thumb, and index ,for scales. As you can see Sor's technique influenced his
composing style... very much different than Giuliani for example, which
incorporates the use of scales far more than Sor.
Personally, I've pondered the speed issue ( not an expert ) and
believe that thumb under, has it over thumb out, for speed, but especially
for acceleration and fluididity.
Personally, I think Paul Odette's recordings of Dowland are
unequalled. Recordings by well known players using thumb out, sound rather
un- lute like after listening to Odette.
Michael
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Schaub" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Mathias RXsel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "Lute net" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 6:50 PM
Subject: Re: Neceffarie obferuations
> Hi Mathias, see my comments in context below ...
>
> --- "Mathias Rösel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> "Christopher Schaub" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb:
>> > I haven't heard anyone play
>> > thumb-under faster than top rate classical or flamenco guitarists whose
>> > technique is not that different from thumb-out, especially in regards
>> > to
>> imim.
>>
>> that may be so, but I'm an _average_ lutenist, you see, and I can
>> comfortably reach top speed. Thumb-in allows average lute players to
>> keep up with the others' speed.
>>
>
> Good point. I have a feeling we're all pretty average compared with
> lutenists
> of the past. :?)
>
>> > I do notice that preparing the bass with the thumb before beginning a
>> > run
>> gives
>> > quite a bit of leverage to allow for some more speed and power with
>> > imim.
>> Many
>> > flamenco players do this for power and speed.
>>
>> which has nothing to do with thumb-in/thumb-out, right?
>>
>
> Well, preparing bass notes is a pretty big part of Baroque lute technique
> and
> can be quite helpful on lutes of greater than 8 courses.
>
>> > I've also heard many say that
>> > thumb-under is more fluid. Again, I'm not sure if that's really true.
>>
>> to be sure, it's a matter of practicing :)
>>
>
> Yeah, it always comes down to this. I wonder if there is a lute equivalent
> of
> selling your soul or magic to get better, like the blues guitar player
> Robert
> Johnson (I think it was him)?
>
>> > It just requires more attention to playing legato with the left hand
>> > using
>> thumb-out.
>>
>> would you mind to elaborate?
>>
>
> Well, I feel the legato comes from playing with a very connected left
> hand,
> from note to note. The right hand is the attack, the left is the
> expression of
> the line. Both hands are involved, but I feel the left hand has a greater
> role
> or harder role with thumb-out.
>
>> > The only area where I think thumb-under has an advantage is to achieve
>> > that
>> > "swing" affect with dance pieces. (...)
>> > I think it's safe to say that thumb-under was generally used for the
>> > first
>> 1/3
>> > of the lute era and thumb-out for the last 2/3. So which is really the
>> dominant
>> > technique -- or even the technique to be taught?
>>
>> I didn't mean to discuss which technique is preferable but whether or
>> not there are certain technical demands that require thumb-in, or
>> thumb-out, respectively, notwithstanding the well known fact that the
>> shift from one to the other technique did take place.
>>
>
> of course
>
>> > What would Dowland do with his
>> > students? I think he makes it clear his intentions that he recommends
>> > thumb
>> > out.
>>
>> I'd love to find out what made him do so.
>>
>
> You and the rest of us. Maybe it was just changing times. Thumb-out does
> generally produce a brighter sound which, to my ears, cuts through an
> ensemble
> better. Maybe it was just keeping up with the young hot shot players?
>
>> > It seems that an emphasis on thumb-out with the ability to thumb-under
>> > when really necessary is the most versatile strategy for playing the
>> > entire
>> > repertoire.
>>
>> or vice versa, if you don't mind.
>
> No problem. I actually also play runs with PIPI using thumb-out. The index
> finger crosses under the thumb. I think Dowland describes this
> technique --
> somebody does because I remember reading it. It's funny, but it works
> really
> well when you get the thumb really stretched out as Dowland describes. It
> doesn't seem to work as well for me when the hand is too high though. I
> actually think it's about the same as runs with thumb-under in terms of
> ease.
>
>> > I can't see how you can really play Baroque music with thumb under
>> > -- jumping from the trebles to the basses could disrupt the flow and
>> > also
>> > interfere with preparing the bass notes.
>>
>> nevertheless, it's required quite often. Have a look into Gaultier's
>> prints, Mouton, Gallot et al. In French baroque lute music, the thumb
>> must be most versatile.
>>
>
> I agree. Thanks for the comments and dose of moderation! :?)
>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Mathias
>> --
>>
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>
>
