Dear Manolo, Thanks for that very helpful thought. That set of papers has been on my 'ought to have' list for years. Whilst some publications and items of interest to lute players are reasonably easy to get hold of, I often find that certain things require extraordinary fortitude and persistence to succeed in getting them. I tried the CNRS website today just to see if I could find anything about this book with no success - so Bernd's comments about CNRS don't surprise me in the least. But I would like to read that paper of Paul O'Dette's, so I will try an alternative route to get a copy.
Thanks & best wishes, Denys ----- Original Message ----- From: "Manolo Laguillo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "LUTELIST" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 9:09 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Dalza Hi, Denys, Bernd, all, do you know the contribution by Paul O'Dette to the 1980 Colloquium 'La lute et sa musique', published by the french CNRS? Title: Quelques observations sur l'execution de la musique de danse de Dalza. I could suggest sending photocopies, but that would a pity, because I have the book, and it is worth reading it complete. It is not expensive, and packed with information (articles by Diana Poulton, A. Bailes, D.A. Smith, M. Vaccaro, J. Jacquot, Tim Crawford, Monique Rollin, A.J. Ness, D. Benkö, Michael Lowe, Howard M. Brown, among others). You can order it directly, through the web page of the Centre Nationale de la Recherche Scientifique (Paris). Saludos from Barcelona, Manolo Laguillo Denys Stephens wrote: >Dear Bernd, >Thanks! I think your explanation is very probably >the correct one. As you say, much depends on which >interpretation of the rules one chooses. Your version, >I think, corresponds to what Ornithoparchus / Dowland >would have thought of as the 'modern' interpretation, >i.e. the C with a stroke through it plus a numeral 3 alongside >it means a 'diminution' of measure lenghts to a third of >their previous lengths. In this case, by changing time from >triple to duple and reducing the duration of a bar from three >minims to one minim, there is a perceived doubling in the >speed of the piece. QUESTION: Doesn't the underlying >tactus stay the same? And is this why decorative running >passages became known as 'diminutions'? > >We really need to study the use of time indications in Dalza >and the other Petrucci lute books to get a better understanding >of this. For example, taking the Pavana alla Venetiana beginning >on f. 9r: The saltarello beginning on f.9v has a 'C3' as its time signature >which corresponds to perfect time. Dalza / Petrucci give the >piece three minims per bar using the special triple-time flags. The piva >which follows, beginning on f.10v, has the 'C with a stroke through it and >numeral 3' sign, and here the bar lengths are halved to three crotchets per >bar, again using the triple time flags. So the rhythm flags suggest a >halving >of note values, but the 'time signature' suggests that the measure length >in the piva should be one third of that in the saltarello? I'm not sure! >Contemporary dance practice could probably throw some light on this, >although the interpretation of dance manuals is perhaps just as fraught as >lute tablature. > >I spent quite a lot of time studying some aspects of Dalza a few years >ago and was amazed that despite the book having been available in >facsimile since 1980, and Dalza being perhaps the most popular lute >composer of his era, the book is still full of unsolved mysteries. > >Best wishes, > >Denys > > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Bernd Haegemann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: "lute net" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>; "Denys Stephens" ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2006 5:26 PM >Subject: [LUTE] Re: Dalza > > > > >>Dear Denys & all, >> >> >> >> >>>this to Dalza's recercar on f. 7, the piece starts in triple time >>>with each measure having a value of a semibreve. The first three >>>measures indeed have three minims each. >>> >>> >>yes >> >> >> >>>Over the page on f.7v the time changes with the sign of a broken >>>circle with a vertical line through it and a numeral 3 set against it. >>>The broken circle indicates imperfect (i.e. duple) time. The tables >>>in the Micrologus suggest that the vertical line indicates a >>> >>> >'diminution' > > >>>and the numeral 3 indicates that the diminution is of a factor of 3. >>>The definition of a diminution is a little confusing: apparently 'the >>>ancients' >>>considered it to consist of reducing the length of a measure by a third, >>>whilst >>>'the moderns' consider it to be reducing the length of a measure by a >>> >>> >half. > > >>>But it >>>goes on to say that a number placed against the diminution sign >>> >>> >indicates > > >>>the value of the diminution. >>> >>> >>I am still a bit confused about the signs, but I also went to the >>bookshelves and found out that there is an "implicit confusion", dating >>back to the times themselves when the signs were used - with different >> >> >meanings. > > >>But the diminutio, indicated by the vertical line through the C -symbol, >>is for sure. (Like this, it would be diminutio dupla.) If there follows >> >> >only ONE number (not > > >>a fraction like 3/1 or >>1/2 ) it indicates the proportion of the diminuition. In this case we have >> >> >a > > >>C and a three, which means that the music change to imperfect tempus and >>minor prolatio AND the there is a diminuition by the factor of... well, 3. >>(There are also examples where this 3 stands for the proportio >> >> >sesquialtera (3/2).) > > >>So, I suggest that we have a proportio of 3 new semibreves corresponding >> >> >to > > >>one of the old ones. In the Dalza case 3 new "measures" take the same time >>as one of the old, triple ones.This would mean double tempo, wouldn't it. >> >>?! Next try, please? :-) >>best wishes >>Bernd >> >> >> >> >> >>To get on or off this list see list information at >>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> >> >>-- >>No virus found in this incoming message. >>Checked by AVG Free Edition. >>Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.13.9/490 - Release Date: 20/10/2006 >> >> >> >> > > > > > -- -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.13.9/490 - Release Date: 20/10/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.13.9/490 - Release Date: 20/10/2006
