Dear Denys
Thanks for these explanations that really do help to clarify my
rather vague intuitions about the linear (polyphonic) as opposed to
vertical approach to music.
We may be much more sensitive to the vertical aspects of the music
than the Renaissance lute person might have intended, and suffer
somewhat from linear deafness to some aspects that the composer did
intend us to hear.
There is also this question of modern standardization of instruments
(and voices?) that are implied in the naming of chords, as you
rightly suggest. Clearly the impossibility of naming something must
have an effect on its place in the musician's thought processes. I
had not thought at all about that aspect.
When we talk about, bass , tenor, alto and soprano lute, I suppose
this is just a convenient modern notion, or was there some tendency
for standardizing string lengths and lute sizes (as well as diapason)
so as to make it easier for lutists to play together?
Regards
Anthony
Le 16 juin 07 à 11:46, Denys Stephens a écrit :
> Dear Neil,
> I find this question very interesting, because it uncovers
> some of the expectations created by the modern guitar tradition.
> We have agreed names for guitar chords because of the fixed pitch
> of the instrument.Admittedly there are three or four positions for
> the same chord on a guitar neck, but one only has to remember a few
> fingerings for them.
>
> The lute never had a fixed pitch because several sizes were in
> common use. Despite the modern fixation that lutes are notionally
> tuned in G, it was probably not a practical reality for historical
> players. So the standard fingering patterns that we think of
> as G, C , D or whatever in guitar terms would have needed different
> name on each size of lute. Sixteenth century lutenists clearly
> knew these patterns, but they don't seem to have had names for them.
> In the surviving English translation of Leroy's tutor there
> is a stave full of chord patterns shown in tablature below
> the heading 'common accordes' - but none of them are named.
> It's actually quite tricky to name a pattern involving placing four
> fingers on six strings if you don't have the convenience of
> appending a universally agreed label to it.It was a lot easier to
> show them in tablature, where a name was not needed to convey
> exactly what was required. In the Dowland / Besarde
> instructions we find examples of chords again, referred to here
> as 'griffes,' but once again no names.
>
> As Stewart has already said, the idea of 'chords' is strongly
> associated with strumming. I suspect that this has in some respects
> changed our notion of what a 'chord' is. For modern guitar it often
> means a fixed fingering pattern that's held for several beats. But
> even in the most chordal lute pieces I think we have to consider that
> historical players saw them as the progression of polyphonic voices,
> which is a different notion altogether.
>
> The sixteenth century approach to intabulation was to transcribe each
> voice, one at a time, into tablature. It was a linear rather than
> vertical process. So the need to think 'what chord am I playing now?'
> didn't arise. It just happened that at certain points the vertical
> alignment of voices produced chords in passing.
>
> So if one really wants named chords on the lute one has to apply
> modern guitar-like thinking and assume a fixed pitch. That might be
> helpful in some respects, but all the names will be wrong when you
> pick up a different sized lute.In my view it's one of those areas
> where modern guitar practice just doesn't translate very well onto
> the lute.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Denys
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: 15 June 2007 19:25
> To: Stewart McCoy; Lute Net
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Chord Confusion
>
> Thank you Stewart
> I must admit I hadn't read Besard, but the texts I had read did not
> include chord patterns, and when I looked at Renaissance manuals
> such as
> Damiani's that seemd quite detailed, but did not talk about chords, I
> thought perhaps that the polyphonic origin of much Renaissance lute
> music,
> might mean that what we recognize as chords (sort of static horizontal
> relations) might have been felt differently as passing dynamic almost
> fleeting relations. I see I am probably wrong in that, unless it
> can be
> considered that Besard is in some way premonitory (can we say that in
> English) looking forward to a different melodic system. I notice, in a
> search on the web, that Besard also favoured thumb out, which was
> to become
> the dominant pattern in later Baroque lute music, so could he be
> considered,
> as pointing in a new direction.
> I am probably wrong again, I do tend to jump to conclusions as has
> been
> pointed out to me previously on our pages.
> Regards
> Anthony
>
> Le 15 juin 07 à 17:39, Stewart McCoy a écrit :
>
>> Dear Neil and Anthony,
>>
>> Some sources of lute music give chords. For example, there are
>> lots of
>> chords in Besard's Instructions, which form the introduction to
>> Robert
>> Dowland's _Varietie of Lute-Lessons_ (London, 1610). Here the chords
>> are given to show left-hand fingering.
>>
>> Thomas Mace gives lots of chords shapes in _Musick's Monument_
>> (London, 1676), but he does so to show that one tuning is better than
>> another.
>>
>> There are chords on folio 1r of the so-called ML Lute Book, i.e.
>> London, British Library, Additional Manuscript 38539, which seems to
>> be a guide for how to realise a figured bass.
>>
>> It is fair to say that there is one important difference betwen the
>> lute and the guitar: you are often required to strum chords on a
>> guitar, but strumming is rare on the Lute. (Newsidler, Caroso?, and
>> occasional French baroque composers are exceptions which spring to
>> mind). Notation reflects performance practice, so the alfabeto system
>> arose in Italy in the early part of the 17th century, because people
>> were strumming their guitars. Lute music tended to be more polyphonic
>> in character, so tablatures were used as the easiest way of showing
>> players what to do.
>>
>> Although it can be helpful to think of chord shapes when playing the
>> lute, it is of less use when intabulating or arranging music for the
>> instrument. If you are unfamiliar with the notes on the fingerboard,
>> it might help to give yourself a cog. Draw a five-line stave and a
>> six-line stave, one above the other. On the five-line stave write
>> down
>> an ascending chromatic scale with all the notes from bottom G (or
>> your
>> lowest course) up to say top e" at the 9th fret of the first course.
>> (That neatly covers all the notes commonly included in the hexachord
>> system.) On the six-line stave copy out all the tablature letters
>> which equate to those notes in staff notation. You can use this
>> conversion chart to transfer notes from one notation to the other.
>> After a while, you become so familiar with the notes on the
>> fingerboard, that you hardly need look at your cog.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> Stewart McCoy.
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anthony Hind"
>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: "Narada" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Lute Net"
>> <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>> Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 3:55 PM
>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Chord Confusion
>>
>>
>>> Neil
>>> It is interesting that lute manuals do not usually give chord
>>> shapes,
>>> whereas this is often basic to guitar text-books. I think this
>>> may be
>>> because, it is felt that although Renaissance lute players may have
>>> used what we would recognize as chords, perhaps if they came from a
>>> polyphonic tradition they might not have seen them exactly in that
>>> light.
>>> Did any Renaissance manual give examples of chord shapes? Modern
>>> manuals are probably strongly based on the perspective of these old
>>> manuals. For example, Damiani's "Method for Renaissance Lute" (which
>>> someone on the list recently considered as very complete) gives
>>> three voice scales, but no chord patterns as such.
>>> I may be completely wrong here, as I am certainly no
>>> musicologist. it
>>> is just an intuition I have about this.
>>>
>>> However, I am afraid I have not answered your question. What was the
>>> website that you looked at?
>>> Was it this one? http://chordlist.brian-amberg.de/en/lute/
>>> rennaissance/
>>> Regards
>>> Anthony
>>>
>>>
>>> Le 15 juin 07 à 16:31, Narada a écrit :
>>>
>>>> Greetings,
>>>>
>>>> Well I'm now utterly confused with regards to chords on the lute.
>>>> Can
>>>> someone recommend where I can get hold of a definitive book of
>>>> chord
>>>> shapes for 6 course lute or possibly 8 course or a decent link. The
>>>> confusion has arisen out of looking at a website that gives full
>>>> barre chords, which seems to be at odds with other information that
>>>> I've got.
>>>>
>>>> This would be extremely helpful as I would like to transcribed 'Le
>>>> Clochard' from guitar to 6 course manually rather than using Guitar
>>>> Pro, so that I can get a better understanding of the transcription
>>>> process
>>>>
>>>> Kindest Regards
>>>>
>>>> Neil Woodhouse ( UK )
>>
>
>
>
>
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