[LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge

[Anthony Hind]

Le 7 janv. 08 à 04:47, Bruno Correia a écrit :
Excellent post Martin!

That's exactly how I see this subject, It makes a lot of sense to  
change the
technique if you have a bigger instrument with more basses. We can  
also
argue that the musical texture had also changed in favour of  
harmony with
emphasis in the "Style Brise"  instead of strict counterpoint.   
Then if we
start to arpegiate chords and add slurs in place of the thumb index
alternation, we'll end at the baroque lute.

Changes in musical style require changes in technique which in turn  
asks
a "better" instrument to play this music...


	I agree, Bruno, you have put it in a nutshell. There is probably not  
one single cause for the change from TI to TO, either musical (for  
increased "treble bass polarity", as suggested by J. Edwards, 1997),  
or mechanical (the number of strings making TO necessary for stretch,  
as suggested by Martin, below and at http://tinyurl.com/2zentd). The  
two causes, musical goals and string technology, tend to feed each  
other.

However, the technical potential, associated with more courses, is  
likely to be exploited by a younger generation of musicians looking  
for a niche in the field which is already occupied by recognized  
musicians, and shunned for some time by these latter (Would Dowland  
not have been in the second category, rather than the first?).  
Generally, this "jostling", for a space in the field, goes in the  
direction of a "move forward", or an innovation (I do not mean an  
improvement, in some Darwinian sense); but this is not always the  
case: in the latest Lute News N°84, Peter Holman, on Page 11, tells  
us how Abel, the great 18th century Gamba player, put away his cello,  
when he found that he could not compete with the established Italian  
cellists, but discovered he could do very well with a step-back by  
"bringing-back" the Gamba.

However, it is difficult to see the TI to TO change as purely  
mechanical in terms of stretch. I believe from reading a number of  
posts, and also the introduction to John Edwards article
http://tinyurl.com/yo8gb7,
that many modern Renaissance players have moved from the TI  
Renaissance lute technique to take up Baroque lute, without changing  
to TO. If they could manage it, then this is not an automatic  
response to more courses,
unless, the courses were different in some way from most modern ones  
(low tension, or loaded, for example).

It could be less a question of accommodating additional bass strings,  
than a change to control the confused sound that results from adding  
these strings, through the sympathetic resonances that this causes.
Moving the hand back towards the bridge with a change to TO, can  
perhaps help to control such sympathetic resonances.
However, the modern player, used to the sound of the "standard" 8c  
lute with its metal-wound strings, might not be so shocked by the  
confused sound resulting from the addition of yet more bass strings.
Now I assume that this is also feasible, because most modern players  
are using high tension wirewound basses, or Gimped or thick pistoy  
gut. It is true that a change to low tension thin basses would make  
it very difficult not  to move back away from the rose and to use TO  
(as proved by Satoh and other low tension users).

It can be argued that such low tension strings are closer to the  
small average historic bridge-hole sizes that a number of researchers  
have measured for basses. Thus such stringing could be more  
"authentic" and the way Satoh had to adapt to this new stringing, by  
moving back to the bridge, could give us an insight into what  
actually happened for historic players, if adding extra basses  
necessarily implied adopting lower tension strings, at that time.
Although possible, this would seem to go against the equal tension by  
touch constraint that Mimmo Peruffo derives from John Dowland, Mace  
and others, as explained in a previous post. It is quite probable, in  
fact, that the addition of more basses was made possible through a  
new string technology, and the loaded string seems highly plausible,  
if we judge by the iconography. However, these also seem to call for  
more control by a move back towards the bridge in terms of their  
greater tonal warmth and freer resonance pattern.

Thus, the change to TO, with move back, may not be purely mechanical  
in terms of stretch, but in terms of controlling sympathetic  
resonances, increased warmth, or a tendency for these diapasons to  
buzz, together with the musical motivation mentioned, by J. Edwards,  
which would have brought some lutists to accept the challenge of  
adapting to these new strings.
This could be the strong motivation that could move a recognized  
player such as Dowland to change technique, from TI  to TO. It surely  
would not have been just  hearing a visiting lute player using the  
new TO technique, but more likely, seeing and hearing a player using  
a new bass string-type, together with the new TO technique, and  
realizing the expressive  musical potential that such a string type  
could give him.
Indeed, my lutist neighbour on trying MP's lute strungwith loaded  
bass strings had exactly that reaction. Previously, he was quite  
happy with his wirewounds. After an hour and a half with MP's lute he  
was no longer satisfied with his present sound.
Regards
Anthony





Regards.


2008/1/6, Martin Shepherd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

Dear Ed and All,

You raise an interesting question.  I can't claim to have the answer,
but I think it may be wrong to assume a drastic change from the old
style to the new.  Besard (instructions translated by Dowland)  
says you
should play thumb-out, but if your thumb is short you can play
thumb-in.  My guess is that the change from TI to TO reflects  
changes in
the number of courses, and consequently the way the thumb is used and
the way the lute is held.

With a 6c lute the neck is not especially heavy and it feels  
comfortable
to play with the neck more or less horizontal.  With more courses  
and a
heavier neck it feels more comfortable to hold the neck higher and  
body
lower, so instead of the arm coming round the end of the lute and the
fingers being almost parallel to the strings (TI), the arm comes over
the top of the lute and the fingers are almost at right-angles to the
strings (TO).

With more courses, and a less contrapuntal/equal-voiced kind of  
music,
the thumb increasingly specializes in playing the basses, which  
may free
it to adopt a different position - more "stretched out", as Besard
says.  Another influence might be that with more courses, the course
spacing at the bridge gets closer, and less suited to TI.

Not everybody went out and bought a 10c lute in 1610, and changed  
their
technique overnight.  In fact, looking at paintings of 7c and 8c  
lutes
yesterday I found that they were mostly Dutch 17th C - obviously  
people
continued to play lutes with fewer courses for many years, and  
used the
lute to accompany singing as they had always done, rather than play
heroic solo music requiring dozens of strings.

Oh, and none of this has anything to do with overspun strings, which
weren't invented until 40 years after Dowland's death and even  
then (for
various reasons which I think we are beginning to understand) not  
used
on lutes.

Best to All,

Martin

vance wood wrote:

Here is another thought:  Maybe Dowland created the change in
technique?  If not him who and from where?  Do we know the answer to
that question?
----- Original Message ----- From: "Ed Durbrow"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "LuteNet list" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 9:52 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge?


Playing the devil's advocate here, I've always found it hard to
believe the best lute player in the world (some must have thought
so), Dowland, would change his technique suddenly. Maybe the  
sources
got it wrong or were purposefully misleading? What would be his
motivation to change?

Just a sec, let me get my flame shield.

On Dec 17, 2007, at 7:19 PM, Martin Eastwell wrote:

I would tend to assume that a player like Dowland would not go off
on a
European tour having just made a major technical change.





Ed Durbrow
Saitama, Japan
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/



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