From: Martyn Hodgson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: arch-guitar
To: "Monica Hall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wednesday, 10 September, 2008, 8:45 AM
Thanks
As said, I have a copy of the pattern somewhere - just have
to find it!
I have however now found the FoMRHI article which mentions
Strad's 'chitara tiorbata' (by yrs truly): FoMRHI Comm 663
October 1985 'The stringing of a baroque guitar'.
Unfortunately, my aim in the paper was to look at evidence
for stringing of the top 5 courses and, whilst I refer to
Strad's records of the theorboed instrument, I only
quote his remarks on the first 10 strings (ie 5 courses) and
none on the basses.
MH
> --- On Tue, 9/9/08, Monica Hall
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > From: Monica Hall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: arch-guitar
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Cc: "Vihuelalist"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Date: Tuesday, 9 September, 2008, 8:47 PM
> > The information comes from
> >
> > Sacconi, Simone F., The secrets of Stradivari (Cremona
> :
> > Libreria del
> > Convegno, 1979), Item 375, p.228.
> >
> >
> > It's a paper pattern of a neck and fingerboard
> 320mm
> > long by 72 mm and 60
> > min width... with a description of the strings and
> their
> > arrangement at the
> > nut. There is a handwritten note on the back by the
> sons
> > of Strad "Misura
> > della Longezza et largezza del manico della chitara
> > tiorbata" followed by
> > the description of the strings.
> >
> > I wonder if anyone has seen the paper pattern? Or has
> a
> > copy of it?
> >
> > Monica
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Martyn Hodgson"
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "Monica Hall"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Cc: "Vihuelalist"
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 6:54 PM
> > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: arch-guitar
> >
> >
> >
> > I'm really not so sure Monica. Whilst it's
> > certainly true that whenever
> > Strad is mentioned it's generally only the five
> courses
> > which are of
> > interest and so are the only ones referred to, But I
> have
> > this nagging
> > memory that in fact he describes theorboed guitar
> > stringing. Indeed I also
> > recall FoMRHI had relevant articles in mid/late 70s -
> I
> > must look.
> >
> > I've been to my stack (ie loft) to find the
> > articles/facsimile but no luck
> > so far in the piles of misc paper - I will
> persevere...
> >
> > Another who thinks the basses are at the upper octave
> is
> > Tyler ( 'the
> > guitar... OUP 2002) page 74 Footnote 51 where he
> describes
> > Granata's
> > theorboed guitar as having seven 'unfingered
> basses
> > tuned daitonically down
> > to a A at the bottom of the bass clef' ie down to
> A as
> > I suggest and not to
> > A,. Of course Tyler is not always reliable , but.....
>
> > Sources requiring
> > the same instruments are listed as Granata 1659, the
> De
> > Gallot Ms, I-NC Ms
> > (have you got this?) and Bob Spencer's sonata for
> > 'chitarrone francese'.
> >
> > Of course, by the mid 18th century the various types
> of
> > arch citterns and
> > arch guitars introduced as novelties could use heavy
> > overwound strings and
> > be strung down to A,. But, as said earlier, I really
> > can't see getting a
> > satisfactory sound from a gut string c. 116cm at A,.
> >
> > MH
> >
> >
> >
> > --- On Tue, 9/9/08, Monica Hall
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > From: Monica Hall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: arch-guitar
> > > To: "Martyn Hodgson"
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Cc: "Vihuelalist"
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Date: Tuesday, 9 September, 2008, 4:35 PM
> > > Stradivarius describes the strings on the
> fingerboard
> > and
> > > the 4th and 5th
> > > courses are octave strung.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I don't think he describes the open courses.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Monica
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > First & second strings: These must be like
> two
> > guitar
> > > first strings
> > > (cantini)
> > >
> > > Third & fourth strings:These must
> be
> > like
> > > two guitar second
> > > strings (sotanelle)
> > >
> > > Fifth & sixth strings: These must be
> like two
> > > thick violin first
> > > strings (cantini)
> > >
> > > Seventh string: This must be a
> violin
> > second
> > > string (canto)
> > >
> > > Eighth string: This must be a
> guitar
> > second
> > > string
> > > (sotanella)
> > >
> > > Ninth string: This must be the thickest
> possible
> > > violin second string
> > > (canto)
> > >
> > > Tenth string: This must be a
> violin
> > first
> > > string (cantino)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Martyn Hodgson"
> > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: "Rob MacKillop"
> > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Cc: "Vihuela"
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 3:21 PM
> > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: arch-guitar
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Yes, indeed, they would double some of the
> fingered
> > strings
> > > but that, I
> > > think, is the point: you can play an open bass
> whilst
> > > fingering a string
> > > (even though the same open pitch) - the same
> advantage
> > > indeed as the late Dm
> > > lute of course ie not so much/or only to get
> lower
> > notes
> > > but to free the
> > > left hand.
> > >
> > > I mention all this because I recall an early
> source
> > (may be
> > > Strad's arch
> > > guitar) gives higher octave stringing (I
> can't lay
> > my
> > > hands on the paperwork
> > > at the present but will dig out in due course.
> > >
> > > Monica may know what I'm on about.......
> > >
> > > Martyn
> > >
> > >
> > > --- On Tue, 9/9/08, Rob MacKillop
> > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > From: Rob MacKillop
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: arch-guitar
> > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > Cc: "Vihuela"
> > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > Date: Tuesday, 9 September, 2008, 3:07 PM
> > > > The string length of the basses is c.116cms.
> I
> > say
> > > > 'circa' because I
> > > > couldn't find a tape measure, so
> ended up
> > using
> > > a
> > > > six-inch ruler...
> > > >
> > > > The Granata Sarbande and Corrente do not
> have
> > > passages
> > > > that would
> > > > suggest anything other than GFEDCBA. In
> the
> > tuning
> > > you
> > > > mention, Martyn,
> > > > (gfedcBA) does not the g double the open
> third
> > > course,
> > > > and likewise the
> > > > d with the fourth course? I can't see
> any
> > > allowances
> > > > for that in the
> > > > scores.
> > > >
> > > > The Sarabande is difficult to play
> without
> > laughing
> > > -
> > > > the first seven
> > > > bass notes (tasto) chime out
> Prokofiev's
> > Hall
> > > of the
> > > > Mountain King (if
> > > > that's the correct title) from
> Pictures at
> > an
> > > > Exhibition... This music
> > > > is difficult to play! I wish I hadn't
> > promised
> > > a
> > > > video!!
> > > >
> > > > Rob
> > > > 2008/9/8 Martyn Hodgson
> > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > >
> > > > Rob,
> > > > Thanks - interesting: there's a
> thought
> > that
> > > the
> > > > 'basses' could have
> > > > been at the upper octave rather than
> the
> > lower as
> > > you
> > > > indicate. In
> > > > short, descending from the 5th course
> string
> > > plucked
> > > > first by the
> > > > thumb (ie from the a downwards g f e d
> c B A
> > and
> > > not
> > > > G F E D C B,
> > > > A, as you say it's now strung.
> > What's
> > > the
> > > > string length of the
> > > > basses? I would have thought it needed
> to be
> > > around
> > > > 160cm to get a
> > > > reasonable sound from a plain gut low
> A,
> > string
> > > but
> > > > I'm not sure
> > > > that any theorboed guitar had basses so
> very
> > > long.
> > > > Martyn
> > > >
> > > > --- On Mon, 8/9/08, Rob MacKillop
> > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > From: Rob MacKillop
> > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > >
> > > > > Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] arch-guitar
> > > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > > Cc: "Vihuela"
> > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > Date: Monday, 8 September, 2008,
> 10:25
> > AM
> > > >
> > > > > It has diapasons on the fourth and
> fifth,
> > on
> > > the
> > > > finger
> > > > > side, high octave on
> > > > > the thumb side. Then it has single
> bass
> > > strings
> > > > descending
> > > > > from G to low A,
> > > > > then it leaps up for a g# and an f#.
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't know if it 'works
> for
> > me'
> > > - not
> > > > sure
> > > > > what that means. Seems to fit
> > > > > the music by Granata OK.
> > > > >
> > > > > Wolfgang has made the lower nut wide
> > enough to
> > > fit
> > > > a sixth
> > > > > course for
> > > > > archlute tuning in E or F. I
> won't
> > have
> > > time to
> > > > explore
> > > > > that, however.
> > > > >
> > > > > Rob
> > > > >
> > > > > 2008/9/8 Martyn Hodgson
> > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > >
> > > > > > Rob,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Are the basses at the upper
> octave
> > and
> > > does
> > > > this work
> > > > > for you?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Martyn
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- On Sun, 7/9/08, Rob
> MacKillop
> > > > >
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > From: Rob MacKillop
> > > > >
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > > > Subject: [VIHUELA]
> arch-guitar
> > > > > > > To: "Vihuela"
> > > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > > > Date: Sunday, 7 September,
> > 2008,
> > > 11:23 PM
> > > > > > > Just received the
> arch-guitar
> > from
> > > > Wolfgand
> > > > > Emmerich. I have
> > > > > > > one week
> > > > > > > to master it (!) before
> he
> > takes
> > > it
> > > > back to
> > > > > Germany. It
> > > > > > > is a well-made
> > > > > > > instrument, but
> everytime I
> > try
> > > to
> > > > play
> > > > > something, I
> > > > > > > can't help
> > > > > > > thinking I am in
> archlute
> > tuning.
> > > I
> > > > have some
> > > > > Gallot -
> > > > > > > but that is in a
> > > > > > > weird tuning requiring
> a
> > change
> > > of
> > > > strings, so
> > > > > will give
> > > > > > > it a miss. I
> > > > > > > also have some Granata,
> so I
> > hope
> > > to
> > > > record
> > > > > that before
> > > > > > > Saturday, maybe
> > > > > > > a video, we'll see.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Rob
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > To get on or off this list
> see
> > list
> > > > information
> > > > > at
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> [10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > >
> > > > References
> > > >
> > > > 1. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > 2. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > 3. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > 4. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > 5. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > 6. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > 7. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > 8. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > 9. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > 10.
> > > >
> > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > To get on or off this list see list
> information
> > at
> > > >
> > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
To get on or off this list see list information at
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