Dear Anthony, I don't know if you are aware of the pioneering work on treatment of violin wood which Joseph Michelman undertook in the US during the 1940s: his work was published (VIOLIN VARNISH) in 1946.
I believe Michelman was a chemist and certainly his book demonstrates a rigourous appoach to violin varnish and belly treatments than many earlier works. What may be on interest in the context of salt loading of sounboards is that he reported on what he believed the early makers used to permanently reduce the unecessary weight of the sounboard and improve stifness. In his case he conducted trials and concluded that linseed oil was used which replaced the heavier water content much, perhaps, in the same way as salt loading may do. Michelman also described work with 'metal soaps' which are produced when water soluble salts react with fatty acids in the wood - I presume this is also linked to salt loading outcomes. In short, well worth a read if you're interested in the subject Martyn --- On Tue, 15/9/09, Anthony Hind <anthony.h...@noos.fr> wrote: > From: Anthony Hind <anthony.h...@noos.fr> > Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Adirondack spruce > To: baroque-l...@cs.dartmouth.edu > Date: Tuesday, 15 September, 2009, 10:45 AM > Dear Ed > I had a look at what guitar > sites said about Adirondack, and it seems "that the chief > benefit of using Adirondak Spruce as a top is its stiffness > to weight ratio." > http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-51636.html > > Presumably this makes it possible to cut the table thinner, > and so its reactions should become faster (similar to what > happens with carbon). > This is also what Mimmo tells me about spruce treated with > salts. The wood becomes much harder, and can be cut > thinner. > > That is also why, Martin Haycock told me he liked to use > Bird's eye maple for backs; because it is relatively hard, > he can cut it thinner than Sycamore. > > Incidentally, on the guitar page, there is a tendancy to > associate Bearclaw Sitka, with Adirondak, for the same > reason. > > "the qualities of Bearclaw Sitka allow it to be worked to > achieve better tone. Due to it's superior stiffness the top > can be dimensioned a little thinner (perhaps this isn't done > by the "factory" guitar makers?). This should translate into > a faster attack transient (an essential characteristic for > clean, fast flat picking). If that is what you are looking > for, then that would be better." > > (However, I was also told, "The rather unusual 'bear claw' > figure seems to be an irregularity of > the annual rings themselves, and as you have seen for > yourself, can be very > variable. Wood showing this figure seems generally to be > stiff and > acoustically good, although I do not think especially > better than normal > wood, and I would rather use it for its decorative > qualities, and not assume > it wil be superior acoustically." > > Now, presumably, if Adirondak (or Bear claw Sika) were used > as though it were regular European Spruce, it would need far > longer running-in. > It would presumably show higher resistance to vibration. > > On the other hand, I read somewhere on a violin page that > you do need to accept a fairly long playing-in time; that it > is quite easy to make a top that can be run-in quickly, by > making it too thin, but then it tends to die early too. > > However I am sure Daniel will make you a > superb Adirondak top, although I rather agree with David, > that this does not mean that many lutemakers will swap over > to it. I don't think that the very successful experiments > with salts loaded spruce tops has lead many lutemakers to > try it. > > The main thing is that you will soon be back playing 11c > music, and perhaps we will have another excellent recording > like your recent Conradi - Kelner record. > > Best wishes > Anthony > > > Le 15 sept. 09 à 05:45, Edward Martin a écrit : > > > Thanks, David. > > > > I fully understand that a new lute (i.e. top, in my > case) will not > > sound as seasoned as an older one, but in this case, I > had no option, > > due to the damage. > > > > I have heard that "right out of the box" that > Adirondack sounds superb. > > > > Are there any on this net who know of an Adirondack > spruce top on a lute? > > > > ed > > > > At 05:49 PM 9/14/2009, David Rastall wrote: > >> Hi Ed, > >> > >> Sorry to hear about your lute. Ouch!! > >> > >> From what I've heard, Adirondack is a good choice > for a lute. > >> Apparently it compares favorably with European > spruce at its best. > >> Most of the Adirondack spruce was used up during > WW 2 in the making > >> of airplanes. But today, the trees that were > too young to be used > >> back then are big enough now to be cut down for > commercial use. > >> > >> My only reservation is that it might take longer > to break in than the > >> other spruces. That's what I've heard from > various guitar mavens. > >> Apparently, the pre-war guitars made with > Adirondack are just now > >> becoming fully broken in. > >> > >> Because of its quality, availability and price, > Adirondack is > >> considered the Holy Grail of guitar tops. I > think it would work well > >> on any lute that put it under enough > tension. It might not work so > >> well on a 6 or 8-course ren. lute. It would > probably work well as a > >> top for a theorbo. > >> > >> I think you will most likely be the only lutenist > ever to play on an > >> Adirondack top! > >> > >> Best, > >> > >> DavidR > >> > >> > >> On Sep 14, 2009, at 1:54 PM, Edward Martin wrote: > >> > >>> Dear ones, > >>> > >>> I had an accident with my 11-course lute 2 > months ago; the top was > >>> shattered. My instrument is one made by > Daniel Larson, and it is 67 > >>> cm, the Frei C34 design. The lute was > firstly made in 1995 as a > >>> 7-course Frei, and it was in 1997 converted > into an 11-course > >>> Frei. This lute had a most beautiful > sound, and I am very fortunate > >>> to have recorded my CD "Allemande" on it, as a > testament to its > >>> gorgeous sound, so I can have this sound to > make reference. > >>> > >>> The instrument is not a total loss, and it is > the soundboard where > >>> the damage occurred. As it was not > repairable, Dan has constructed a > >>> new top for it. The original top was > made of Italian spruce, but for > >>> the replacement, it is made of Adirondack > spruce. It is very near > >>> completion, and the finish merely needs to be > polished (French > >>> polish). > >>> > >>> Sitka, Engelmann, and European spruce > varieties are the most commonly > >>> used for today's instruments, but I have never > heard of Adirondack > >>> spruce used for lute tops. > >>> > >>> Wikipedia makes this description of Adirondack > spruce: > >>> > >>> "Adirondack <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spruce>Spruce aka Red > >>> Spruce (<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picea_rubens>Picea > rubens). > >>> This legendary wood that Martin used for its > tops throughout its > >>> golden years came from the East Coast, from > the Southern Mountains > >>> into New England and upper New York State. > Called both Appalachian > >>> and Adirondack spruce, it has a creamy white > color. Similar to Sitka, > >>> Adirondack responds well to either a light or > firm touch. It has more > >>> overall resonance than Sitka. Interesting > grain color variations make > >>> this another visually desirable top. > Adirondack has been unavailable > >>> since the mid-1940s. Virgin growth has been > (fortunately) preserved > >>> in national parks; the rest is all second > growth, plentiful but too > >>> small to be usable for guitar tops until > recently. Guitar makers have > >>> started finding second growth of at least 100 > years old that is big > >>> enough to be used for tops again. Adirondack > is, like Alpine spruce, > >>> very expensive and mainly used for top of the > range acoustic guitars." > >>> > >>> I looked at the Martin guitar page, where they > state that Adirondack > >>> spruce is used on their extreme top-end > models. Dan tells me that > >>> this wood is very difficult to obtain, but he > obviously does have > >>> some of it. In talking with some guitar > friends, they state it is > >>> wide grained, not straight grained; they > also tell me it is the > >>> absolutely best top wood for guitars, but it > is rare, as availability > >>> makes it so scarce. > >>> > >>> Mine is very tight and straight-grained. > If one were to compare its > >>> appearance, it mostly resembles German spruce, > in my estimation. > >>> > >>> Dan has made 2 batches of 4 modern > guitars; in each batch, he used > >>> Italian spruce on 3, and Adirondack in > 1. He rates the best results > >>> were startling; in both batches, the > Adirondack top yielded the best > >>> result in all areas - volume, complexity of > sound, clearness, singing > >>> trebles, and depth. > >>> > >>> Obviously, I am very excited to hear what the > final result is on my > >>> old lute. > >>> > >>> My question is: has anyone on the list > constructed, owned, or played > >>> a lute with an Adirondack top? This very > well may be the first lute > >>> with this top, as I have never heard of it > prior to this project. > >>> > >>> Thanks! > >>> > >>> ed > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Edward Martin > >>> 2817 East 2nd Street > >>> Duluth, Minnesota 55812 > >>> e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com > >>> voice: (218) 728-1202 > >>> http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name > >>> http://www.myspace.com/edslute > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> To get on or off this list see list > information at > >>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> No virus found in this incoming message. > >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > >> Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.98/2371 > - Release Date: > >> 09/14/09 17:52:00 > > > > > > > > Edward Martin > > 2817 East 2nd Street > > Duluth, Minnesota 55812 > > e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com > > voice: (218) 728-1202 > > http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name > > http://www.myspace.com/edslute > > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
