Hello, Chris! This is an interesting thread. There actually are a few modern players who use the true "thumb out" technique, as you describe. One that immediately comes to mind is Toyohiko Satoh. Toyohiko demonstrated this at the LSA seminar in Cleveland in 2006. He also has 2 recordings using this method, his Weichemberger and LeSage de Richee recordings. He used his original 11-course lute, made by Laurentius Greiff. He has one more coming out, "Ayumi", baroque lute duets with his daughter, Miki Satoh. All 3 CD's are performed using the technique as demonstrated in icongraphical sources you mentioned.
In this technique, Toyohiko plays with the fingers and thumb as you describe, and it is close to the bridge, with pinky on or behind the bridge. According to Toyohiko, the key to making this successful is to play with very low tension strings, as higher tensions that most of us use make a sound that is too harsh and brittle. Using gut in low tension has been very successful for Toyohiko, as he is able to get very colorful sounds. And yes, I would describe it as having (your words) body, resonance, and dynamic range. According to Toyohiko, synthetic strings in low tension using this "authentic" technique do not yield good results. He also wrote an article that was published this winter in the LSA "Q". The article was about gut strings, and he described using low tension in detail. I do not play lute using this technique and set-up, as it would be very expensive to switch to lower tension strings, but more so, the work involved to re-learn a new technique is something that I chose not to do at this point. I did lower the tension on both of my baroque lutes, but I had difficulty in making it work for me. He told me it was difficult to re-learn this means of approach to the baroque lute, and this approach would take a long time. ed At 10:37 PM 9/15/2009, chriswi...@yahoo.com wrote: >Ned, I've never seen any modern player do real "thumb-out" >technique. Most people, even the big guys, do as Jan does in the >video: a sort of "half thumb" that is neither in or out, but is more >closely related to thumb-under in terms of technique and >tone. This, in spite of the fact that virtually the entire body of >iconographic evidence from after c.1600 (and much of it before) show >lute players with the wrist bent considerably so that the right hand >fingers are nearly perpendicular to the strings. Usually this is >combined with pinky placement very near - or on or behind - the >bridge. I've even seen some pictures of lutenists with their >pinkies totally off the top like alla Segovia. The problem, of >course, (and the reason no one does it nowadays) is how to produce a >tone that has body, resonance and dynamic range with this position. >Chris --- On Mon, 9/14/09, nedma...@aol.com <nedma...@aol.com> >wrote: > From: nedma...@aol.com <nedma...@aol.com> > Subject: [LUTE] >Jan Gruter's technique > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Date: Monday, >September 14, 2009, 3:22 PM > I find Youtube a > good resource >for looking at the techniques of various > lutenists, and Jan >Gruter (no umlaut on > my keyboard) impresses with the > fluency >of his playing (for example > Dowland's "A Fancy"). To me >it > looks like he uses thumb over technique > and I wonder if >his technique > is similar to what those who have > researched >this issue think Dowland > may have used later in his career, >when > he is said to have adopted a > more thumb over > >technique. I have seen this piece played > very well by > one >of our members with thumb under > technique, but the thumb over >does > seem to make playing the running lines in > the treble - >using m-i > instead of p-i - along with a bass line > easier to >manage. Of course, > it also comes to my mind, that the two > >techniques inevitably result in > a different character; subtle >differences > in sound and in rhythmic > articulation and >accentuation. And > this leads me to the bigger > question of >how fluid - how regular in > articulation - lute pieces such > as >this one "should" sound. In > essence, I rather wonder if >the > difficulties imposed by thumb under > technique in dealing >with trebles > and basses together isn't actually an > advantage >in leading the player > to finding the true character of >earlier > lute music. ( As wonderfuly as > guitarist today - and >earlier - play, I > do find something essential > missing from >lute music played on that > instrument, and it has to do > with >much more than just sound) > > > > Just pondering the issue of >right hand > technique as I work at >it. > > > > Ned > > -- > > > To get on or off this list see >list information at > >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.100/2374 - Release Date: >09/15/09 20:00:00 Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name http://www.myspace.com/edslute
