Dear Jaroslaw
What a pity I missed you. I did look out thinking I might see
you, but evidently we must have been sitting in two different areas.
PARA
>Anyway, I have a strong impression from what you are writing, that
> during our "string talk" you were very much relating to the 17 c.
French. (Jaroslaw)
PARA
Yes, I think there is a clear difference according to school and
period. My impression is that the later French musicians (to a certain
extent) cut with an earlier renaissance and transitional aesthetic. I
only have the contrasting evidence of Burwell and Mace, and the lute
type choices; but it seems fairly clear: some late Renaissance early
transitional players were probably exploring deeper bass, while the
French Dm musicians switched more to exploring the Meanes. Later again
there was a return to an interest in deep bass for the "ground", as the
German Baroque school broke with the Mid-rich complexity of the
previous French tradition (although, perhaps the English and Dutch
schools had kept some of the earlier aesthetic ideas alive). I am sure
this is an abusive simplification, but I just wanted to say that not
all were so interested in bass sustain (on the contrary, some may have
wanted to control it).
PARA
> music. In this case I would be more inclined to agree on the string
> choice. However I was rather talking about lute string evolution in
> general. Existing sources confirm that the longer sustain wasn't
> necessarily avoided as you suggest. On the contrary there were
attempts
> made to prolong sustain as much as their technique allowed for.
(Jaroslaw)
PARA
I would not argue against that, but I would suggest that it was not
always bass sustain they were looking for.
There seems to have been a great deal of research attempted on the way
strings resonate, although the full explanations of sympathethetic
resonance come a little later, and we see all sorts of instruments with
sympathetic strings created (including Dm in which the open strings
that are unused do act that way), but this is not just to increase bass
sustain.
PARA
"Recently in England the instrument has been fitted
with a peculiar addition. Under the six
ordinary strings lie eight steel and twisted brass
strings, on a brass bridge (like those used
on a pandora). These are tuned to accord exactly with
the upper gut strings; then, when one
of the latter is excited by the bow or the finger, the
lower strings of the steel or brass
immediately vibrate in sympathy. This considerably adds
to the beauty of the sound." Syntagma Musicum,Preatorius
PARA
> As I can see, you are looking for the homogeneity
> in lute's sound, however I don't think this is the only way a lute
can
> work. Mace makes very clear distinctions between lute registers and
> probably absolutely different types of strings were used for those
> registers as Mimmo were suggesting during the London meeting. I agree
> with him in this respect. ( Jaroslaw)
PARA
I also agree with Mimmo, but this does not mean that the differences in
lute string structure according to register means a less homogeneous
sound, on the contrary.
Of course each string type may have a slightly different timbre, but
the purpose of the difference is to have them "sing together" with as
close a sustain, and as little harmonic difference, as possible. The
difference in structure is necessitated by the problem of impedance at
the bridge, which is increased at every step-up in thickness. If you
keep the same string type all the way through from Treble to Meanes and
Bass, you would find that the increasing impedance would cut the bass
sustain short and reduce its high frequency harmonic content, resulting
in a klonk-like sound (very different from that of the Meanes); but
also this increased impedance at the bridge presents a break to the
resonance of the Meanes and trebles. The result is a general curtailing
of the sustain of all voices.
PARA
This is, I think, is why Mimmo makes Venice twine Meanes, which are
very flexible and which present a similar impedance to that of a lower
twist thin treble; but when we reach the bass register, this simple
twine treatment, even with chemicals, is insufficient: a thick bass
Venice string still shows too much impedance (compared to the Meanes).
Loading the Venice allows a thinner bass, so lowering its impedance
nearer to that of the Meanes. Thus by using Venice Meanes and by
loading Venices at the Bass, we obtain a fairly equal impedance across
the voices and a "more equal" sustain, as well as a better singing
quality to each voice, actually, giving less of a break between voices
(better homogenity).
PARA
Nevertheless, using Venice Meanes as octaves to the loaded Venice
basses improves this homogeneity: (1) by making each bass and octave
function more like one string, and (2) by further reducing the break
between Basses and Meanes (particularly if the Octave is at higher
tension than the bass, thus becoming the leading voice).
PARA
There are other ways of lowering the impedance of bass twine. George
Stoppani, if I understood him correctly at the conference, uses a
regular Lay twine for his Meanes (In a regular lay rope the twist in
each strand is in the opposite direction from the twist in the rope, as
shown in this photo of a wire rope:
[1]http://tinyurl.com/yfm2fx2
PARA
However, for his largest basses, G.S. uses a Lang lay twine rope (In
lang lay rope the twist in each strand is in the same direction as the
twist in the rope), as again shown in a wire rope:
[2]http://tinyurl.com/yzgow3r
This type of rope is less stable (and can more easilly unravel or form
kinks), but they are also more flexible than regular lay, and so have
better relative harmonicity or lower impedance.
PARA
Charles Besnainou takes this process a stage further, and deliberately
creates kinks in a lang lay rope (a little like the kinks in the rubber
band of a toy plane when wound up) so as to make a rope spiral spring.
This can be considered to have an air core. Here are a few of his
spring ropes. The top two are gut, the 3rd is synthetic, and the 4th is
cotton, just to show the spring structure more clearly.
[3]http://tinyurl.com/ydlodf2
PARA
In any case, its ability to stretch by 25% allows it even better
harmonicity than GS's Lang Lay; but its even greater instability makes
it very difficult to tie on to the instrument.
There is little doubt that this string is historical (we can be certain
it was used for catapults, and for certain specialist marine purposes)
but just how historical its use is as a bass string, and in particular,
on what instruments it was used, is a question of debate; but it would
seem that at least some bass strings were made this way according to
Agostino Ramelli's Le diverse et artificiose machine, Paris, 1588.
(I will try to make Charles' text accessible to readers, so I will not
go into too much detail, here).
PARA
Nevertheless, these different ways of treating a bass string are all
ways of of obtaining better harmonicity (or less impedance at the
bridge) which helps to give it tonal qualities closer to that of the
Meanes : better sustain and more high frequency content. The structural
difference, in fact, results in more sympathetic behaviour and less
tonal break.
(I don't want to discuss, here, which is the better method, I would
simply say that loading a string both improves its bass extension and
to a certain extent its high frequency content, while using Lang lay,
or spring ropes really only improve the high frequency content of the
bass rope).
PARA
> He (Mimmo) also showed a gut string treated with tartar oil
enormously elastic
> which looked more like a rope (it could easily be wound in bundle)
but
> obviously it was only a way of preserving gut as I understood from
his
> explanations, but not the end result. Unfortunately historical gut
> strings made nowadays don't posses these qualities. It is still a
> mystery what their gut strings were like. Lack of uniformity in
string
> production is not a good explanation so far. It is possible that gut
was
> treated somehow in order to make it very elastic.
PARA
Here, I think we understood things differently. I may be wrong, but I
thought this superb string, with its magnificient behaviour when held
between the hands, was Mimmo's latest version of his Venice loaded. As
I understood it, the cream of Tartar was used to obtain an even
smoother loading than he had obtained before. The result is that a very
thin Venice core could be maintained, as a heavier loading could be
used, allowing the loading to be increased in steps on the same core
(just as the Dutch lute allows the same thickness of bass to be used
for all basses, by increasing their length by steps).
This would give an exceptionally low impedance (as explained above) and
a remarkably true resonance pattern, as shown by Gerle, Leroy,
Mersenne, etc:
[4]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jan01/monthpics/leroy.jpg
[5]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jan01/monthpics/mersenne.jpg
[6]http://www.luteshop.co.uk/Gerle1546small.jpg
Of course this is not actually a historic string, but a modern
interpretation entirely in keeping with our knowledge of the goals of
string making and the aesthetics of the music (particularly French Dm).
I was being a little provocative when I called it "historic"
PARA
> But back to basses. I am very practical musician as you know, and
before
> I say that something works I have to hear it first. Theoretical
> explanations aren't good enough for me. In the end of "string
meeting"
> there was a recital of French music(mainly from Vaudry de Saizenay
> manuscript) played by Claire Antonini. I enjoyed it immensely and it
> didn't matter that she was playing on the lute strung in nylon and
wire
> wounds. It was just a good performance. On the other hand it was a
pity
> that Benjamin (who was there too I think) didn't play his all gut
lute.
> That would be a great comparison of how stringing influences French
music.
PARA
I quite agree, a good lutenist can make beautiful music with
wirewounds, and it is true that it can be better to hear an excellent
musician on a lute strung that way than a lesser musician with loaded
strings. However, that is a little like saying (but to a lesser degree)
that you would prefer to hear a first rate pianist playing Bach, than a
second rate harpsichordist (when it comes to French harpsichord music,
however, I might begin to prefer the second). A lute strung enirely in
gut with loaded basses, seems almost like a different instrument. Now
which you prefer, is certainly a question of taste, and I certainly
would not say that one was simply better than the other in any absolute
manner.
PARA
Benjamin's lute had only recently been re-strungand would not have
given a good idea of how loaded strings can sound. I have the good
fortune in having a lute strung that way, and also of being able to
compare with the two lutes Benjamin now has strung in the same way.
They are developing well, but it takes a month or so for the loaded
basses to really begin to sing. Venice octaves, as I have said before,
also bring a further improvement.
PARA
When I heard Benjamin playing solo Baroque lute strung with loaded, and
then his Theorbo strung in Lyons in duet with a Baroque flute. I
realized just how well the sound of this type of wooden flute goes both
with pure gut and loaded basses.
I have nothing against wirewounds, indeed, the modern guitar duo with
modern metal flute sounded just as harmonious, I mean the two
(wirewounds and metal flute) also went extremely well together.
Thank you again for this dialogue,
Best wishes
Anthony
---- Message d'origine ----
>De : "JarosAAaw Lipski" <jaroslawlip...@wp.pl>
>A : "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >> / lute@cs.dartmouth.edu/ "
<lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>Objet : [LUTE] Re: Switching between gut and synthetics
[Wirewound/Loaded]?
>Date : 19/02/2010 23:01:53 CET
>
>Anthony,
>
> How strange.......it looks like we were both the same place and the
same
> time not knowing about each other. It's a pity I didn't know you
would
> be there too.
> Anyway, I have a strong impression from what you are writing, that
> during our "string talk" you were very much relating to the 17
c.French
> music. In this case I would be more inclined to agree on the string
> choice. However I was rather talking about lute string evolution in
> general. Existing sources confirm that the longer sustain wasn't
> necessarily avoided as you suggest. On the contrary there were
attempts
> made to prolong sustain as much as their technique allowed for. We
can't
> compare the tone quality and sustain of their open wire wounds with
our
> modern because the wire they used was much thicker then the one we
use
> at present and had different contain. But the overall tendency seems
to
> be quite clear. Secondly I wasn't talking about modern close wire
> wounds. Thirdly, there will always be some critical opinions. This is
> how it gets when something new is introduced. Some conservative
people
> would despise new inventions which doesn't signify that the rest
would
> share this feeling. As I can see, you are looking for the homogeneity
> in lute's sound, however I don't think this is the only way a lute
can
> work. Mace makes very clear distinctions between lute registers and
> probably absolutely different types of strings were used for those
> registers as Mimmo were suggesting during the London meeting. I agree
> with him in this respect.
> He also showed a gut string treated with tartar oil enormously
elastic
> which looked more like a rope (it could easily be wound in bundle)
but
> obviously it was only a way of preserving gut as I understood from
his
> explanations, but not the end result. Unfortunately historical gut
> strings made nowadays don't posses these qualities. It is still a
> mystery what their gut strings were like. Lack of uniformity in
string
> production is not a good explanation so far. It is possible that gut
was
> treated somehow in order to make it very elastic.
> But back to basses. I am very practical musician as you know, and
before
> I say that something works I have to hear it first. Theoretical
> explanations aren't good enough for me. In the end of "string
meeting"
> there was a recital of French music(mainly from Vaudry de Saizenay
> manuscript) played by Claire Antonini. I enjoyed it immensely and it
> didn't matter that she was playing on the lute strung in nylon and
wire
> wounds. It was just a good performance. On the other hand it was a
pity
> that Benjamin (who was there too I think) didn't play his all gut
lute.
> That would be a great comparison of how stringing influences French
music.
>
>
> All the best
>
> Jaroslaw
>
>
>
>
> > PARA
> > However, as Martin tells us, "it is the Burwell lute book, which
> > explains that the French removed the low octave from the 11th
course
> > because the sound of it was too "big" (not necessarily sustained)
and
> > smothered the other strings."
> > Although some do consider this as an explanation after the event,
of
> > the way some lutenists may have altered their 10c lutes to 11c
> without
> > changing the peg structure, nevertheless, this does not seem to
> > indicate a love of deep bass, among the later French Baroque
> lutenists,
> > which might have lead to their preferring demi-filA(c) strings.
> > PARA
> > Indeed, according to Charles Besnainou (message to the French lute
> > list), gimping and wrapping were well known in the embroidery trade
> for
> > several hundred years, and so the technology was at hand, if anyone
> had
> > felt a need for their use; but as Martin points out, after
Playford,
> no
> > lute treaty (Burwell or Mace) even mentions these string types.
> > PARA
> > Ch.B. goes on to write, "more than a century after the invention of
> > wirewounds advertized in the English Dancing Master of John
Playford
> > (Londres, 1651), we find this critical commentary in l'Art du
faiseur
> > d'instruments (l'EncyclopA(c)die MA(c)thodique, Paris, 1785) :
> > A<< a|les bourdons filA(c)s ont l'inconvA(c)nient de dominer trop
> sur
> > les autres cordes, et d'en faire perdre le son final par la
durA(c)e
> du
> > leur, dans les batteries de guitares. A>>
> > Thus as late as 1785 wire wounds (most possibly full wirewounds)
are
> > described as overpowering the other voices and covering them
> completely
> > in their moment of decay; and this quality/defect for French
Baroque
> Dm
> > music, remains, in my mind, a real problem with full wirewounds
> today,
> > and which damping does not completely allay.
> > PARA
> > On the other hand, Claude Perrault (quoted by MP), in "OUVRES DE
> > PYSIQUE", AMSTERDAM 1680, seems to agree with Jaroslav: of
wirewounds
> > he says, "...c'est par cette mA-ame raison que la maniere que l'on
a
> > inventA(c)e depuis peu de charger les cordes a boyau, rend leur son
> > beaucop plus fort: car le fil de metail trait..." (27).
> >
[3][7]http://www.aquilacorde.com/en/researches/our-works/loading-of-gut
.ht
>
> > ml?start=3
> > PARA
> > These contrasting remarks could be two different views of the same
> bass
> > string type (as Jaroslaw rightly says taste can differ), but it is
> also
> > possible that in this 1680 text, CP is talking about demi-filA(c),
> > while in the 1785 text, the author is talking about full-wounds.
> > Indeed, CP insists on the fact that this improved loudness is
> achieved
> > without any change to the tonal sound of the string, as their
> > vibrational structure is not altered, because the stiffness or the
> > flexibility of the resonating body remains unchanged.
> >
[4][8]http://www.aquilacorde.com/en/researches/our-works/loading-of-gut
/39
>
> > .html
> > PARA
> > Now this does sound like a demi-filA(c), whose open wire leaves the
> > flexibility of the gut unimpeded, thus presenting less impedance at
> the
> > bridge than the full-wound, indeed, less than that of a regular
thick
> > gut bass, since the diameter (as with Mimmo's loaded strings) can
be
> > thinner. The free vibratory movement of a loaded string is
> effectively
> > more like that of the pendulum (or the clapper of a bell, as in the
> > Perrault quote), rather than that of the tight metal spring as with
> the
> > full-wirewound. The stiffness of the full-wound seriously alters
the
> > sound quality tending to put a break on the full resonance of the
> other
> > voices, while having good sustain themselves.
> > (Perhaps, as this text is dated 1680, we might be sure that wire is
> not
> > drawn thin enough to make full wirewounds; I am sure there is a
note
> on
> > this in MP's text, but I was unable to find it).
> > PARA
> > MP adds that "The author refers to the new overspun bass strings
> giving
> > however the impression he is talking about a new technological
> strategy
> > for loading gut (i.e. the use of metal wire) in place of a more
> > traditional one."
> > This does seem to be indicated by another example of loading in
> Charles
> > Perrault's text, when he says that "on charge avec de la soudure
> > ("solder") le bout des languettes des anches des orgues" (they load
> the
> > organ's metal tongues, or reed, with solder). Thus, ChP is clearly
> > considering methods of loading.
> > PARA
> > Nevertheless, in spite of their qualities, demi-filA(c) do not seem
> to
> > have been generally adopted until about the 1720s, around the same
> time
> > as the swan-neck was introduced, and the fashion for the
fan-bracing
> > began to spread; all these indicate a new tendency to revel in the
> > basses, in keeping with what was to develop into the Galant taste
for
> a
> > more underlined bass line to support a differentiated upper voice;
> but
> > these do not seem to have been qualities cherished by the later
> French
> > school, in which so much more was going on in the Mid register.
> > PARA
> > However, it is probable that the adding of two courses on a rider
to
> > make 11c into 13c lutes which really determined the success of the
> > demi-filA(c). Indeed above a certain thickness (beyond 11c) the
> loaded
> > strings do tend to become a little dull, while the wire on the
> > demi-filA(c) can actually restore a little brightness (pure gut
> strings
> > become even more problematic on a 13c rider lute). It may thus have
> > become acceptable to sacrifice a little homogeneity in favour of a
> > better tone, which may also have corresponded to a change in taste
> > (although the swanneck variant might indicate that some continued
to
> > dislike demifilA(c), using the extension for pure gut basses;
unless
> > they were after even more bass and sustain by using it with
> > demi-filA(c)).
> > PARA
> > This would surely have been a break with the late French (and
> possibly
> > early German) Baroque taste, which seems to benefit from as little
> > tonal break as possible between the voices, while tending to
explore
> > the Meanes, yet spurning the frequency extremes.
> > We can gather this from the critical remarks in Burwell, about the
> 12c
> > double-headed lute (I quote Kenneth Sparr):
> > "According to the Burwell Lute Tutor the double-headed lute was not
> > accepted for long in France and furthermore the author argues
against
> > the views of 'English' Gaultier, who supposedly held that the
length
> of
> > the strings on the double-headed lute produces a longer and bigger
> > sound: all the strings ought to have the same length of sound, and
> the
> > sound of a string must make room for the other; for besides the
> > confusion that the length of sounds produce, it also causeth a
> discord
> > (since every bass cannot make a concord with every small string).
And
> > this is the first reason. The second evil effect that condemneth
this
> > alternation is that the sound of these long strings is not good,
and
> > that sound is like that of one that sings in the nose. "
> > [5][9]http://www.tabulatura.com/MESTWEB.HTM
> > PARA
> > This seems in keeping with the concept of "le bon gout franAS:ais"
> > developed around this time, which would favour an elegant economy
> over
> > extreme effects, while rejecting an earlier more flamboyant
> > "preciosite", which was perhaps still to find favour in the
Cavalier
> > court of Charles the Ist (under the patronage Henrietta Maria of
> > France, sister of Louis XIII).
> > These paintings could evoke this difference of approach, even in
> > clothing (although here the date difference can account for it):
> >
[6][10]http://www.er.uqam.ca/nobel/r14310/Luth/Iconographie/darthmouth.
edu.
>
> > wbc/Reyn-Big.jpg
> >
[7][11]http://idata.over-blog.com/2/01/43/65/Louvre-10/Louvre-10-0550.J
PG
> > PARA
> > As proof of this conservative tendency, the Carolean masque under
the
> > influence of Henrietta Maria absorbed a type of outmoded "ballet de
> > cour" known as "ballet A entrees" that was already judged as
> decadent
> > in France, with its increased emphasis on the visual and
spectacular,
> > at the expense of the dramatic function.
> >
[8][12]http://www.societefrancaiseshakespeare.org/document.php?id=737
> > H-M had herself performed in such ballets in France before coming
to
> > England, and her role in helping perpetuate earlier transitional
> French
> > Baroque forms, is possibly non-negligeable; it was H-M who
surrounded
> > herself with French musicians such as Jaques Gauthier, who appears
in
> > the lists of the queen's musicians, as well as in the orchestral
list
> > for two exravagant masques, as Musician in masques, Triumph of
Peace,
> > 1634; maker of lutes for masques, Britannia Triumphans, 1637,
> (Journal
> > of the American Musicological Society).
> > PARA
> > If H-M's presence in England may have helped preserve this older
12c
> > French style (Gauthier and Mace), her contacts with Holland (where
> she
> > arranged the marriage of her daughter Mary to William of Orange,
and
> > sold her jewels to finance the Royalists), may have helped its
spread
> > there; I believe some of her French Catholic musicians fled to
> Holland
> > during the English Civil War (although I can no longer find the
> > reference).
> > PARA
> > I will admit that this is my interpretation from the scraps of
> > information that I have been able to glean, and I am of course
> willing
> > to be put right by any serious musical historian.
> > Nevertheless, couldn't it be said that two competing schools of
> French
> > Baroque music developed: The French "Dm school", and the English
and
> > Dutch ("Transitional") French school (even if the two may not have
> been
> > quite so separate as my account suggests); but the "bon gout
> > franAS:ais" shunning the flamboyant extremes may not have
completely
> > won out.
> > PARA
> > There are a number of indications of the existence of a difference
of
> > taste, as between two schools: Mace, who also adopted a form of 12c
> > lute (see his lute Dyphone), damned with faint praise the taste for
> > Bologna lutes, in this well known scene where he described Jacques
> > Gaultier showing him two pittiful cracked examples of Maler's art.
> > [9][13]http://www.lutesandguitars.co.uk/images/07-2005/Mace3.jpg
> > He concluded, "I have often seen Lutes of three or four pounds
price,
> > far more illustrious and taking to the common eye"; but the most
> > telling thing, is that the teachers, Gautier and Mace do not use
> > Bologna lutes, while their rich amateur students apparently do.
> > I wonder why, this passage is widely quoted in support of the
Bologna
> > "fad", while, I seem to hear Mace and Gautier (both lutenists and
> lute
> > makers, or designers?) chuckling at the expense of their rich
> student's
> > feeble lutes (even if this may have included the king himself).
> > PARA
> > Thus Jaroslaw is again quite correct, in insisting on variation in
> > taste. Some musicians and their audiences clearly went on enjoying
> the
> > less homogenous slightly bass boomy 12c lute (as the Burwell text
> would
> > have it).
> > Perhaps, Mace's Dyphone lute actually needed the "tut" Grace
(Music's
> > Monument p.109), as Jaroslaw mentions, not just for the bass line
but
> > also for the other voices, because of the strong sympathetic
> > resonances of this "twin" lute.
> > [10][14]http://www.tabulatura.com/mace.jpg
> > PARA
> > Well of one thing we can be sure, this Diphone lute would not have
> > found favour with the author of Burwell, who had already found the
> 12c
> > lute a "faute de goA>>t",
> > "The fourth reason [is] that there is no symmetry in proportion in
> the
> > two heads, and a lute so framed is not a lute but a bastard
> instrument
> > between a lute and a theorbo. " which almost both predicts and
damns
> > Mace's invention in advance (although the dates of both in fact
seem
> to
> > differ by only a few years).
> > PARA
> > Yet, the criticism in Burwell may well tell us more about the
notions
> > of "bon goA>>t" held by the newer French school than any real
defect
> in
> > the 12c lute. I have to admit that I have only heard one such lute
> > played live, but it had Charles Besnainou's ultra low impedance
> spring
> > strings on it, and I was listening more to the strings than the
> > instrument or the music.
> > PARA
> > However, Paul Beier told me that his 12c lute is a very elegant
> design,
> > in which each bass string increases in length by a sufficient step,
> so
> > as to keep the same string thickness across the basses. This is
more
> or
> > less what Mimmo's loaded Venice achieve by a sufficient step in
> loading
> > to keep the same diameter Venice core.
> > PARA
> > Both these methods for maintaining the same effective diameter seem
> to
> > have been noted in two Italian 18th century texts (discovered
> recently
> > by Mimmo) concerning the characteristics which determine the
> resonance
> > frequency of a gut string; they both state that apart from length,
> > diameter, and tension, there is also the weight, or the gravity, of
a
> > string.
> > I will leave Mimmo to give the details, but this is indeed in
keeping
> > with the 12c solution, as well as a strong support for the loaded
> > string hypothesis.
> > PARA
> > You ask me, Jaroslaw, whether I would give up my loaded strings if
> they
> > were proved to be non-historic.
> > I would say that the problem, for modern interpretations of French
> > Baroque Dm lute music with full-wounds, is less the increased
sustain
> > of these basses, than their impedance to the sustain of the other
> > voices resulting in a less singing lute sound; but it is this
double
> > effect that ensures the smothering of the Meanes and Trebles (as
> l'Art
> > du faiseur d'instruments describes). I don't think this corresponds
> > well with the goals of this particular music, as I have tried to
> point
> > out.
> > I don't see any more musical solution for a Bologna lute of 70cm or
> > below. It is this consideration which makes me so happy with my
> Venice
> > loaded basses with Venice octaves and Meanes on my Warwick Frei:
even
> > the basses sing, and the other voices also have good sustain. I
> believe
> > this would be in keeping with what we know of the goals of French
> > Baroque Dm music, even if it could be proved that they had never
> > actually existed.
> > PARA
> > Now if another bass string was to be produced that was both
historic,
> > and had even better properties of harmonicity, I might be tempted
to
> > change from my present loaded. Well, during his string conferences
in
> > London, Mimmo handed around just such a string: with improved
> loading,
> > an even thinner Venice core, and a heavier but smoother loading.
> > When I held it across the fingers as shown on Martin's site:
> > [11][15]http://www.luteshop.co.uk/Gerle1546small.jpg
> > it vibrated with superb duration and trueness of shape, AND it
would
> > bundle exactly as you point out does the string shown there.
> > Yes, it did instantly come to my mind that I might "upgrade" at the
> > same time as I could lower the diapason from 407 to 392Hz, but the
> > singing quality of the present basses is so good, that I don't
think
> I
> > have the heart to do so now, but some time...
> > PARA
> > Now I have also been quite tempted by the type of 12c lute that
Paul
> > Beier owns (I hope he may soon make a recording). If I was to
acquire
> > such a lute, I might consider trying Charles' low impedance spring
> > strings, or George Stoppani's flexible Lang Lay ropes (of which
more
> > later), but on a Bologna style lute, I really see no better
solution
> > than the loaded strings.
> > PARA
> > As to silk wound silk strings, I agree that the Gansar is a
possible
> > candidate. According to Ch B Gansar could be associated with the
> French
> > word "ganse" which is usually a cord wound round with silk
sometimes
> > with a silk ribbon, to form a smooth rope. Such a rope should not
> show
> > high impedance at the bridge, and might have good sustain.
> > And do we really know what the Pistoy might have been? but that is
a
> > different story...
> > Regards
> > Anthony
> >
> > Alexander,
> > Well, I think this is just misunderstanding. What I was trying to
do
> is
> > to show that verbal descriptions of tone colour are subjective and
> can
> > lead to misinterpretation. I purposly showed 2 extremes: mellow and
> > sharp only to diferentiate general tone qualities. I don't think we
> > have to do with a myth of sharp lute sound. On the contrary we have
> to
> > do with myth of a sweet , full ,and mellow tone quality mentioned
by
> > some writers. We can't proove it because we don't have old strings,
> but
> > I am afraid that comparing a lute played in proper (pinky on a
bridge
> > or behind) manner with the same lute played using modern technique
> > (which is neither renaissance nor baroque), and then describing the
> > tone characteristic would be very instructive. The only person that
I
> > know of using this technique is Toyoshiko Satoh. When I listen to
his
> > recordings (turning the volume up) I can hear that the quality of
his
> > tone is very different from what we are used to. Inspite of using a
> > very low tension strings I can hear in the tone some kind of
> > "stiffness" (kind of a sound not very far from a lute stop). And no
> > wonder because even if your string is slack its elasticity drops
down
> > rapidly towards the bridge (giving a little bit more wooden quality
> to
> > it - actually I never mentioned harsh tone). Nothing wrong with
> that!
> > It's just different. So ,what I was saying is that all the
> descriptions
> > of lute's sound are very subjective.
> > Now, I don't know what Mace comment you were thinking off. If you
> meant
> > Playford's advertissement I can't see where he mentions too long
> > sustain of the strings. Here is the full citation:
> > Advertisment (John Playford "An introduction to the skill of
music",
> > 4th edition London 1664):
> > "There is a late invension of strings for the basses of viols and
> > violins, or lutes which
> > sound much better and louder then the common gut string, either
under
> > the bow or finger. It
> > is small wire twisted or gimped upon a gut string or upon silk. I
> have
> > made trial of
> > both,but those upon silk do hold best and give as good a sound. The
> > choise of these strings
> > are to be sold at Mr. Richard Hunts Instrument-seller at the Lute
in
> > St. Pauls Alley near Pater noster Row.
> > Finis"
> > Actually he was praising newly invented wire (gimped) strings which
> had
> > much better sound quality then ordinary gut. As you see it looks
like
> > they were looking for new string material for because gut wasn't
> ideal
> > and they liked stronger, louder tone with more sustain.
> > Silk strings were mentioned by Terzi (1686) as well. As for roped
> silk
> > Dowland's Gansar strings could be a candidate. Also silk strings
with
> > silver wire - so called Grotesky strings - were well received:
> > "Goretsky hath an invention of lute strings covered with silver
> wyer,
> > or strings which
> > make a most admirable musick. Mr Boyle. [...] String of guts done
> > about with silver wyer makes a very sweet musick, being of
Goretsky's
> > invention" ( 1659 ).
> > All in all, describtions were and are subjective, but we have our
own
> > ears to asses if the string is good or not.
> > Best
> > Jaroslaw
> > from Ed Martin
> > I have followed this thread with great interest.
> > Now that Playford gets into the discussion, I recently had a great
> > experience. Dan Larson, lute builder and string maker, recently
> > acquired a treasure - an original edition of Playford's 1664 book,
in
> > which the strings are mentioned. I recently held this beautiful
book
> > in mint condition, and read through some of it.
> > Interestingly enough, Playford does not mention the strings at
> > all; this statement is in the very last folio, where it is an
> > advertisement from a merchant who happens to sell strings. In any
> > event, there is not general agreement that the description in this
> > advertisement confirms that wound strings were used. The statement
> > describes wire twisted or gimped upon gut or silk, which does not
> > necessarily describe our modern concept of a wound string.
> > At 06:23 AM 2/4/2010, alexander wrote:
> > O, my apologies, thinking Playford, writing Mace. His complaining
> > voice just is so loud in my head... ar
> > On Thu, 04 Feb 2010 07:52:19 +0000
> > Martin Shepherd<mar...@luteshop.co.uk> wrote:
> > ???? Mace doesn't mention wound strings at all. You may be thinking
> of
> > the Burwell lute book, which explains that the French removed the
low
> > octave from the 11th course because the sound of it was too "big"
> (not
> > necessarily sustained) and smothered the other strings. I know of
no
> > lute source which mentions wound strings.
> > Best wishes,
> > Martin
> > ???? Mace doesn't mention wound strings at all. You may be thinking
> of
> > the Burwell lute book, which explains that the French removed the
low
> > octave from the 11th course because the sound of it was too "big"
> (not
> > necessarily sustained) and smothered the other strings. I know of
no
> > lute source which mentions wound strings.
> > Best wishes,
> > Martin
> > If i may, just on two erroneous assumptions regarding the imagined
> > sound quality from "when Historical Correctness was the History
> > Itself". One has to do with the idea of the lute basses having
rather
> > short sustain. Mersenne, who otherwise is an accepted authoritative
> > source on the strings (+ more), claimed that bass strings on the
> lutes
> > had sustain of "several seconds". Currently possible only with the
> > wound strings. Mace in his comment regarding the "new wire wound
> > basses", dismissed their usefulness on the same basis, as,
according
> to
> > him, the "currently available basses", on long lutes had too long a
> > sustain already. This is one of the points which, as i understand,
> > keeps Mimmo Peruffo on searching for ever better answers then the
> > current loaded gut offers.
> > The second has to do with the universally accepted assumption that
> > playing near the bridge with the "thumb out" produces a "sharp
tone"
> ("
> > Did
> > they like mellow or sharp tone? The RH position of most baroque
lute
> > players
> > on old paintings suggests the later."). This is just an assumption,
> as
> > strange as it may be. Toyohiko Satoh demonstrates this on
> > baroque lute. Then there is the case of this famous picture here:
> > [12][16]http://library.csun.edu/igra/bios/graphics/aguado-d.gif
> > The picture is of Dionisio Aguado, who according to his
> contemporaries
> > hearing him play duets with Fernando Sor, at times had as deep and
> > dignified sound, as Sor did, while playing WITH FINGERNAILS with
his
> > little finger firmly lodged behind the bridge. The critics, who
> > otherwise were not noticed to be ignorant or unprofessional, on
> > occasion compared his midrange sound to a cello! Of course then
> > alternating with
> > a "bright and clear trebles". While we can "only guess" how the
long
> > lutes
> > sounded when played by all those pictured with their hand on the
> > bridge, the critique of Aguado's performances is available from
> > European news papers and magazines, available in microfilm. If the
> > experiment is carried to the logical conclusion, one will notice
that
> > with the proper strings (and synthetics will not work at all in
this
> > case, and i am not claiming this theoretically), and allowing the
> right
> > hand to play somewhat in reverse of the logic ( fingers moving
> slightly
> > away from the bridge in plucking, and actually, not quite plucking,
> > too, this position can be seen on Aguado's pictures), may be with
> the
> > right side of the large fingertip, while acquiring a very relaxed
> > stance, one will notice that the sound will not remind a
harpsichord
> > lute stop at all. Of course, one quality that is required from
> > trebles in this case, is flexibility and ability to turn under the
> > finger (which comes with flexibility). Modern gut strings only so
> > slowly develop in this direction. I have a string made by Mimmo
> Peruffo
> > (about 0.6 mm), twisted of two parts, like a rope, and then
polished.
> > This string can be kept in a "knot", not unlike the "historical"
> > distribution methods suggested. Of course, for a string maker to go
> > into production of these, a long time will pass, with changing
demand
> > and tastes. Meanwhile, demanding
> > musicians are looking for solution in the lower tension ( Toyohiko
> > Satoh ) instead. Et
> > cetera... Everything flows somewhere.
> > The "Some early records mention
> > strings vibrating for up to 10 seconds after being struck: gut
> strings
> > vibrate a second or two at most, but silk vibrations can continue
for
> > 10
> > seconds." quote appears to be corrupted in some way, as i was the
> > source. The discussion was of a particular design silk strings,
with
> > the roped silk core wound by twisted silk. There is no evidence of
> such
> > strings in Europe. A second or two - for plain gut basses.
> > alexander r.
> > On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 22:36:12 +0000
> > JarosAAaw Lipski<jaroslawlip...@wp.pl> wrote:
> > Anthony,
> > Thank you for a very interesting link. It looks like guqin players
> are
> > a
> > little bit more aware of their past then oud players or at least
this
> > awarness is making its way.
> > There is nothing wrong about being little crazy or nostalgic We
must
> > be
> > crazy to spend money on such impractical things. However I don't
> think
> > that
> > puting a set of gut strings on a lute will transfer a player (or
> > listner) to
> > the past. It's rather a journey (as you wrote) to the new exotic
> > sounds.
> > Changing strings makes music different but it doesn't need to have
> > pejorative connotations. I don't think that there is anything wrong
> > with
> > enthusiasm, say, for loaded basses, or any other new type of string
> > providing we realize what is the reason to use them. Do we want to
be
> > archeologists or musicians? If archeologists, one has to buy what
> > people say
> > is HIP. If musicians, one buys what suits his musical taste best.
> > Obviously
> > we can be both, but then we will be torn and tormented when new
data
> > arrives. I wouldn't fancy throwing away loaded basses if someone
> > announced
> > one day that he has a data that contradicts existence of those
> strings
> > in
> > past. I would only buy them if I liked their tone. At least this is
> my
> > attitude. I am the musician in the first place.
> > So What is the reason for using gut?
> > 1/Economical
> > Definitely not economical. However in past it could've been so.
It's
> > difficult to compare prices from 18th century to the prices of
modern
> > gut,
> > but definitely it must have been cheaper a lot. Normaly it was
bought
> > in
> > bundles (as Mace and others write). If the production was really
> > massive it
> > could be the cheapest way to go then.
> > 2/Historical
> > This is a good argument for those of us that love history. The only
> > problem
> > is that probably the guts we can produce at the moment aren't the
> same
> > that
> > were produced then.
> > Thiner strings were very supple - characteristique quite different
> from
> > modern HT guts.This is the citation from Martin Sheperd's site (I
> hope
> > you
> > don't mind Martin?
[13][17]http://www.luteshop.co.uk/stringshistory.htm
> ):
> > "Packaging: strings were made in lengths ("knots") at least twice
as
> > long as
> > was needed on the instrument. "Double knots" are presumably twice
as
> > long.
> > They are then "made up" into "bundles", more knots to a bundle for
> thin
> > strings than for thicker ones. The whole issue of packaging has
been
> > largely
> > ignored by modern writers but it can give vital clues as to the
> nature
> > of
> > the strings: all the descriptions of "knots", "bundles" and how to
> > extract a
> > string from them suggest characteristics very different from those
of
> > modern
> > gut strings, which must be carefully coiled because bending round
> sharp
> > corners ruins them. The picture of testing for trueness in Gerle's
> book
> > of
> > 1546 is one of several depictions which shows what a "knot" was
like"
> > Do have a look at the picture of such a bundle on Martin's site .
> > The fact very well known but notoriously overlooked or ignored
> > (intentionaly?) by HIP players. Then the argument that original
guts
> > were
> > better because they were stiff and this is why it was easy to play
> > ornaments
> > is not valid any more from historical point of view.
> > Then comes the issue of basses. We already discussed it many times
so
> I
> > won't be repeating my standpoint, however I'd like to draw your
> > attention to
> > another aspect of the bass issue. One of the main arguments of gut
> bass
> > advocates is that the string doesn't ring long therefore the
balance
> of
> > the
> > instrument is much better. Now we enter another teritory so I'll
make
> > another point here.
> > 3/Tonal
> > Tonal characteristic is something that each one of us would
describe
> > differently. Our descriptions of how instrument in general or the
> > string
> > itself sounds is in a way a projection of our likings. For example
a
> > person
> > that likes low frequences would describe an instrument set with
> > wirewounds
> > as sonorous. The tone of the very same instrument would be
described
> as
> > boomy by another person who prefers higher frequencies. This is
just
> to
> > say
> > it isn't objective.
> > We can hear it very clearly in some HIP interpretations. Some
players
> > are so
> > afraid of boomy and unclear bass line that they develope quite
> > complicated
> > technique of dumping bass strings. Whether it is historical or not
to
> > play
> > small phrases this way, can be polemicized, however playing the
whole
> > bass
> > line non legato seems to be dictated rather by personal taste.
> Although
> > Mace
> > suggests that it actually was in use (Music's Monument p.109)
however
> > he
> > describes it as a grace called "tut". Grace, not the whole
technique
> of
> > playing bass line.
> > Then we have to ask what were the likings of people in 17 or 18
> > century. Did
> > they like mellow or sharp tone? The RH position of most baroque
lute
> > players
> > on old paintings suggests the later. What were the tonal qualities
of
> > other
> > plucked instruments they invented? Harpsichords, lute-harpsichords
> > etc....I
> > wouldn't say they have gentle, very subtle and sweet sound. I would
> > describe
> > them rather as sonorous with comparatively strong bass register.
> > I am not advocating here use of grand piano strings for lute, but I
> am
> > trying to say that describing tone quality can be very subjective.
> > We know that probably silk strings were used on lutes. Acording to
> the
> > author of the article on guqin silk strings: "Some early records
> > mention
> > strings vibrating for up to 10 seconds after being struck: gut
> strings
> > vibrate a second or two at most, but silk vibrations can continue
for
> > 10
> > seconds." So the argument that gut was highly valued for its short
> time
> > of
> > vibration seems to be fallacious. Morover, metal strings were used
in
> > Italy
> > on theorbos with even longer vibrating time.
> > It can't be excluded that gut was most commonly used because it was
> > cheapest, less problematic than silk and easiest to obtain but not
> > necessarily for its tonal unsurpassable values.
> > 4/Subtle sound qualities
> > This probably should be discussed together with tonal
> qualities,however
> > some
> > people refer to it as a special, unique characteristic of gut.
Again
> > it's
> > very subjective, however I have an impression that succesful
> > performance
> > depends more on imagination and sensitivity of a musician not the
> > string
> > material used. There is nothing subtle in gut. We make it subtle by
> > playing
> > it in imaginative and subtle way.
> > 5/ sensory sensations
> > Yes, this is probably the most valuable virtue of gut. Gut feels
> good,
> > gut
> > plays good under our fingers. It's not as slippery as nylon.
> > 6/ecological
> > Good way to go for those who like everything natural. It is a nice
> > feeling
> > that the whole instrument is 100% natural.
> > To sum up I believe there are some important considerations in
favor
> of
> > gut
> > use, however I wouldn't say that this is the only material suitable
> for
> > lute
> > strings. Unless we find with certaintenty how gut was made in past
we
> > can't
> > pretend that the main reason for using it is to recreate an old,
> > traditional
> > way of playing. But even then, there is a place for new string
> > materials
> > which have some qualities that gut doesn't. Plastic sounds more
> > plastic,
> > that's obvious, but there are other adventages of using plastic.
> > I like history, nature and subtle things, but on the other hand we
> > can't
> > deny we are modern. So instead of concentrating on beeing 100% HIP
I
> > prefer
> > to concentrate on music. I use gut but for different reasons
> > Anyway,thank you for interesting thoughts. It was nice to talk to
you
> > again
> > Anthony.
> > Best wishes
> > Jaroslaw
> > To get on or off this list see list information at
> > [14][18]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >
> > --
> >
> > References
> >
> > 1. [19]http://tinyurl.com/ykm8wms
> > 2. [20]http://www.amazon.fr/gp/product/B00285HBXO/ref=dm_dp_trk17
> > 3.
[21]http://www.aquilacorde.com/en/researches/our-works/loading-of-gut.h
t
> ml?start=3
> > 4.
[22]http://www.aquilacorde.com/en/researches/our-works/loading-of-gut/3
9
> .html
> > 5. [23]http://www.tabulatura.com/MESTWEB.HTM
> > 6.
[24]http://www.er.uqam.ca/nobel/r14310/Luth/Iconographie/darthmouth.edu
.
> wbc/Reyn-Big.jpg
> > 7.
[25]http://idata.over-blog.com/2/01/43/65/Louvre-10/Louvre-10-0550.JPG
> > 8.
[26]http://www.societefrancaiseshakespeare.org/document.php?id=737
> > 9. [27]http://www.lutesandguitars.co.uk/images/07-2005/Mace3.jpg
> > 10. [28]http://www.tabulatura.com/mace.jpg
> > 11. [29]http://www.luteshop.co.uk/Gerle1546small.jpg
> > 12. [30]http://library.csun.edu/igra/bios/graphics/aguado-d.gif
> > 13. [31]http://www.luteshop.co.uk/stringshistory.htm
> > 14. [32]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
--
References
1. http://tinyurl.com/yfm2fx2
2. http://tinyurl.com/yzgow3r
3. http://tinyurl.com/ydlodf2
4. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jan01/monthpics/leroy.jpg
5. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jan01/monthpics/mersenne.jpg
6. http://www.luteshop.co.uk/Gerle1546small.jpg
7. http://www.aquilacorde.com/en/researches/our-works/loading-of-gut.ht
8. http://www.aquilacorde.com/en/researches/our-works/loading-of-gut/39
9. http://www.tabulatura.com/MESTWEB.HTM
10. http://www.er.uqam.ca/nobel/r14310/Luth/Iconographie/darthmouth.edu
11. http://idata.over-blog.com/2/01/43/65/Louvre-10/Louvre-10-0550.JPG
12. http://www.societefrancaiseshakespeare.org/document.php?id=737
13. http://www.lutesandguitars.co.uk/images/07-2005/Mace3.jpg
14. http://www.tabulatura.com/mace.jpg
15. http://www.luteshop.co.uk/Gerle1546small.jpg
16. http://library.csun.edu/igra/bios/graphics/aguado-d.gif
17. http://www.luteshop.co.uk/stringshistory.htm
18. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
19. http://tinyurl.com/ykm8wms
20. http://www.amazon.fr/gp/product/B00285HBXO/ref=dm_dp_trk17
21. http://www.aquilacorde.com/en/researches/our-works/loading-of-gut.ht
22. http://www.aquilacorde.com/en/researches/our-works/loading-of-gut/39
23. http://www.tabulatura.com/MESTWEB.HTM
24. http://www.er.uqam.ca/nobel/r14310/Luth/Iconographie/darthmouth.edu
25. http://idata.over-blog.com/2/01/43/65/Louvre-10/Louvre-10-0550.JPG
26. http://www.societefrancaiseshakespeare.org/document.php?id=737
27. http://www.lutesandguitars.co.uk/images/07-2005/Mace3.jpg
28. http://www.tabulatura.com/mace.jpg
29. http://www.luteshop.co.uk/Gerle1546small.jpg
30. http://library.csun.edu/igra/bios/graphics/aguado-d.gif
31. http://www.luteshop.co.uk/stringshistory.htm
32. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
