--- On Sat, 29/5/10, Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
From: Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Fw: Re: [LUTE] Re: baroque mandolins etc--- tensions and
kgs?
To: "Lute Dmth" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>, "Stuart Walsh"
<s.wa...@ntlworld.com>
Date: Saturday, 29 May, 2010, 9:25
Sorry, I meant dear Stuart (!).................
--- On Sat, 29/5/10, Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
From: Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Fw: Re: [LUTE] Re: baroque mandolins etc--- tensions and
kgs?
To: "Lute Dmth" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Saturday, 29 May, 2010, 9:15
Dear Eugene,
If you stretch a string (say 0.4mm diameter and density, say 1.3Kgm)
between two points (say 32cm apart) and pull on one end to, say, 3Kg
(strictly 3 newtons) and then pluck the string it will give a
particular pitch.
If you lengthen the distance but keep everything else the same the
resultant note will sound lower; indeed, if you double the distance it
will be an octave lower. A similar sort of thing occurs with the other
factors (variables).
There's a formula (going back, I think, to the 17thC) which relates all
these
frequency= sqrt[tension/pye x density]/length x diameter
MH
--- On Fri, 28/5/10, Stuart Walsh <s.wa...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
From: Stuart Walsh <s.wa...@ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: baroque mandolins etc--- tensions and kgs?
To: "Eugene C. Braig IV" <brai...@osu.edu>
Cc: "'Martyn Hodgson'" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>, "'Lute List'"
<lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Friday, 28 May, 2010, 20:17
Is there a simple explanation, somewhere, of string tensions and what
3kg or 7 kg etc means and what is the significance of it. I've never
understood what it's all about.
Stuart
Eugene C. Braig IV wrote:
> Greetings Martyn,
>
> Of course, more lute-like mandolins comfortably predate wire-strung
> mandolins historically. I don't think modern mandolin tension had
any
> influence on the recent semi-resurgence of early mandolin types. On
typical
> modern Neapolitan mandolins, tension on e'' around 6+ kg is pretty
common.
> Archtop mandolins will range up to 10 or so. Early Neapolitan types
often
> use gut e'' strings around 0.5 mm at similar scale lengths to
4th-tuned
> mandolins, thus are strung just a little heavier than 4th-tuned
mandolins,
> but still much lighter than fully wire-strung modern mandolins. Also
of
> course, classical guitars are strung as high as 7 or even 8+ kg, even
in
> gut.
>
> Whatever might have been historically available, I really think the
typical
> modern tension of 4th-tuned mandolini is simply dictated by the
availability
> of finest functional gut now. I've never tried splitting a string,
don't
> know that I'd trust myself to do so. However, 0.4 mm tends to fray
very
> quickly as is. Tension certainly has some play in the fraying of gut
> fibers, but so does abrasion from the fingers or any contact with
nail, and
> if you apply quill, fraying could be accelerated. I think a player
could
> "eat" through gut of less than 0.4 mm very quickly. That's why I
ordinarily
> keep carbon on the highest course or two.
>
> Best,
> Eugene
>
> ________________________________________
> From: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk]
> Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 11:45 AM
> To: Eugene C. Braig IV
> Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: playing technique of baroque mandolin
>
> Dear Eugene,
>
> Thank you for this. Not being at all familiar with the mandolino, I
was
> unaware of, what to my mind, seems such high tension (4Kg) being
normally
> employed on the finger plucked instrument of only around 32cm string
length.
> No wonder someone remarked about 'iron bars'. Did this sort of
tension
> emerge by working back from the later metal strung/bent belly
neopolitan
> mandolin tensions or was there some other (historical) source you
mandolino
> players consulted. Clearly the Ospedale's strings look a very good
line of
> enquiry.
>
> Generally the desirable string tension on the lute seems to relate to
string
> length so that bigger instruments of the same type (eg 7 course
lutes)
> mostly require higher tensions. Dowland, for example, tells us that
bigger
> lutes need thicker strings. Of course, there's some latitude and it
seems
> that lute tensions probably went down with an increase in the number
of
> courses around 1600 (perhaps to keep the instrument from collapsing),
which
> in turn required a closer to the bridge plucking position - but all
this is
> another, and well rehearsed, story. What I was wanting to suggest is
that a
> lower string tension might well be worth exploring on the small
mandolino
> to, paradoxically, achieve more volume from finger plucking. I'm
aware of
> the suggestion that 0.4mm is the thinnest gut historically possible
but I'm
> not so sure how safe an assumption it is (perhaps for whole guts -
but
> cannot they be split?). What if, for a test, you tried nylon 0.30mm
on the
> first (if it's still available) and the rest accordingly?
>
> Yours even more intrigued
>
> Martyn
>
> --- On Fri, 28/5/10, Eugene C. Braig IV <[2]brai...@osu.edu> wrote:
>
> From: Eugene C. Braig IV <[3]brai...@osu.edu>
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: playing technique of baroque mandolin
> To: "'Lute List'" <[4]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Date: Friday, 28 May, 2010, 15:45
> Somewhere there is a catalogue of strings intended for shipment to
> Vivaldi's famous Ospedale della Piet`a. I don't remember the
level of
> detail, but do remember it lists strings for mandolin. I think I
have
> a transcription of that document someplace, but am not certain.
I'll
> keep my eye open. If anybody else has it, feel free to weigh in.
>
>
> It's hard to find modern gut that functions very well below 0.4 mm
> diameter. With string lengths typically around 31-34 cm,
depending
> upon pitch, I would expect the g'' strings to be pretty
substantially
> higher in tension. Right now, I have carbon g'' strings on mine
> (technically, P-Line CFX flourocarbon fly fishing leader material)
at
> 0.32 mm. Because of limitations of the strings themselves, the
g''
> usually clocks ca. 4 kg. I go to ca. 3 kg on the others.
>
>
> Best,
>
> Eugene
>
>
>
_______________________________________________________________________
>
> From: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:[5]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk]
> Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 4:23 AM
> To: Eugene C. Braig IV; Stuart Walsh
> Cc: 'Susanne Herre'; 'Lute List'
> Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: playing technique of baroque mandolin
>
>
>
> Not being a mandolino player I hope you don't object to me
intruding
> and commenting on Timmerman's (fine) performance and the volume he
> generates from the instrument. Of course, since the piece is
recorded
> we have no real means of knowing the volume - for all I know it
could
> be as loud as a modern grand piano or as soft as a small
clavichord.
>
>
> One thing did occur to me though: I sensed he employed a fairly
low
> string tension (especially noticeable in the trills and the like).
I
> don't know what tension you mandolino players would normally
expect to
> use on this sort of instrument (string length 30cm?) but by
analogy
> with lutes I'd automatically be looking at something around
> 1.5Kg/Newtons. Is there historical evidence of the string tension
on
> these instruments?
>
>
> yours enquiringly
>
>
> Martyn
>
>
>
--
References
1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=brai...@osu.edu
3. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=brai...@osu.edu
4. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
5. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
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