Hi Morgan,
Glad you found it helpful! It's sometimes a good idea to kind of
"flatten" the thumb, i.e. turn it downwards towards the lute. Classical
guitarists tend to have a habit of sort of plucking up from the string,
and this won't sound good. If what you're doing feels a bit unnatural
that might be a good sign - shows that you're not just repeating your
old guitar habits!
Using the thumb/index is a bit like using a pick, but a really big
squashy sort of pick that covers both strings of the course!
As for the videos, I'm glad you liked them, but don't copy the
technique I use on the baroque guitar and theorbo ones (that's supposed
to be thumb-out!). If you're really stuck, you could make your own
YouTube video, post it to the list and ask for comments!
All the best,
Sam
On 19 October 2010 03:28, mc41mc <[1]mc4...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Dear Sam,
Thank you so much for the detailed response. I need to re-read it and
I am away from my lute, but already it is very helpful.
I think I need to use more of the tip of my thumb (i.e. point it more
toward the soundboard) and less of the side (pointing toward the head
stock), and contact the second string of the course sooner. Orienting
my thumb this way, more perpendicluar to the strings, feels a little
unatural to me so I was hesitant to do it. Also, I think I was a
little bit mislead by how much thumb-index scale passages resemble
using a pick, and so assumed that the thumb could plant on a single
string and then push through to the second string, similar to a pick.
I enjoyed the youtube clip you gave. It was hard to see your hands in
detail, but I could get a good sense of how you hold the lute. I got a
pretty good look at your hands in some of your baroque guitar clips
which were very nice.
Thanks again,
morgan
__________________________________________________________________
From: Sam Chapman <[2]manchap...@gmail.com>
To: m cornwall <[3]mc4...@yahoo.com>; [4]lute-cs.dartmouth.edu
<[5]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Mon, October 18, 2010 12:13:18 PM
Subject: Re: [LUTE] beginner help required for thumb under technique
Dear Morgan,
Here are a few tips about RH technique on the lute (most of which I
picked up during my lessons with Hopkinson Smith...):
Firstly, I think most players find it much harder to get a good tone
from the thumb than from the fingers - it's something that even the
best players have to continually work on, so don't be disheartened! If
the sound is harsh it may simply be because the the skin on your thumb
is rough. Just as modern guitarists are obsessive about the
shape/smoothness of their nails, lutenists soon realise how much
difference the state of the fingertips makes to the sound produced. You
may consider avoiding doing lots of manual work (gardening, working
with tools, chopping wood etc), wearing gloves in cold weather, evading
doing the washing up, using hand creams, etc...during periods when you
plan to play the lute a lot.
If the strings are buzzing against each other or the frets, it might be
worth checking that your lute is set up really well. If the string
spacing is very narrow, or the tension is very low this might cause
buzzing. Also, if the frets are old or not quite the right guage you
might get similar problems. The best thing would be to get this checked
out by an experienced player or maker, otherwise you might waste a lot
of time!
As for the stroke itself, you might consider the following:
1. At the start of the stroke, try to have contact with both strings of
the course. You can practice this by planting the thumb on the course
and feeling both strings under your thumb, without pushing them towards
each other.
2. The most important thing about getting a good sound with the thumb
is to allow the arm to move freely. At the beginning you might want to
take your little finger off the soundboard, and make thumb strokes
where you simply put the thumb on the course (as above) then allow the
weight of the arm to bring the thumb through the strings from the elbow
(keeping the wrist, hand, and thumb more or less as a unit). Do this
with big exaggerated movements at the beginning, until the arm feels
very free. You can also simply strum through all the courses like this.
This can be very hard for guitarists, since the elbow is more or less
locked in place most of the time on the classical guitar.
3. Once the arm is free and moveable you can put your little finger
back on the soundboard and do the same kind of thing, obviously making
less exaggerated movements. But generous arm movements are generally
very good (you only need to make smaller movements when you start
playing very fast passages). Your little finger and wrist need to be
quite flexible, otherwise the arm can't move.
4. As for the thumb itself, the joint I allow to move is the third one
back from the tip (at the bass of the hand). If you are playing notes
with the fingers at the same time, the arm can't move, so the movement
comes entirely from there. For playing scale passages I use a
combination of arm and this 3rd joint (for very fast passage the arm
barely moves, but never becomes stiff). I would think of the other
thumb joints more as affecting tone quality. If you keep them rigid you
are more likely to produce a strong bright sound; if they are more
flexible your sound might be sweeter and warmer. But never use these
joints for actually producing the sound (especially the last joint!).
5. Things like the direction the stroke takes and what part of the
thumb to use vary from player to player (and thumb to thumb!). It's
best to experiment. You will find that the kind of stroke you use
depends on the music and what kind of sound you want to produce. It's
good to practice both rest strokes and free strokes. As a general rule,
use rest strokes wherever you can, unless it's a fast scale passage or
you need to play an adjacent string with a finger. I find that I can
make a strong bright sound if I use mainly the tip, but using more of
the thumbs surface may give more warmth and is generally better for
playing runs in combination with the index. It's a good idea to
experiment with pushing the strings towards the body of the instrument
when you pluck. However, when playing real music you don't always have
time to do this, so you also need to find a way to get a good sound
with a quick stroke. In general, the thumb (also the fingers) should
never slide along the strings as you pluck, and should move in one
clear direction (S-shaped movements are not advisable!). I'm not sure I
would say that the thumb stroke is lighter on the lute than the guitar.
It's just different. If you ever play on gut basses you will see that a
very firm thumb stroke is necessary to get a good balance and quality
of sound.
6. If your thumb sometimes collides with the other fingers this
probably has a lot to do with your general hand position (and lute
position!). However much you change what your fingers do, if you hold
the lute at a similar angle to how you would hold a guitar, and your
right hand approaches it at a similar angle, you will never develop a
good thumb-in technique. Your right hand needs to approach the
instrument at a much less acute angle, ideally so that the right
arm/wrist passes more or less over the bridge. You can achieve this by
either dropping the right shoulder as much as possible (popular, but
not advised!) or by finding a way to raise the lute so that your arm
aproaches it naturally at a less acute angle. Some players use a
footstool for the right foot, others sit on a very low chair, some
suspend the lute in mid air with a strap...I personally use a little
cushion on my right leg to raise the lute. The smaller the instrument,
the bigger the problem! The lute should also be held at a less steep
angle than a modern guitar. When you get these geometrical problems
sorted out, the chances are that your right hand will fall more or less
naturally in the correct place and you won't have problems avoiding
your thumb and fingers clashing. It shouldn't be an effort to avoid
them bumping into each other - the position of the body and the
instrument should simply make it more or less impossible (unless you
have a very long thumb or very short fingers!).
I hope this helps a bit. As you can see, this is a very large topic and
even with a good teacher it can take years to develop healthy technical
habits. Good luck!
All the best,
Sam
P.S. You can judge me thumb technique for yourself here:
[6]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnpaOTGrG2M
On 11 October 2010 15:50, m cornwall <[7]mc4...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Howdy,
I am now the proud owner of a lovely Barber and Harris 7 course
student
lute. I have played the guitar for years, but the lute is new to
me.
I have been studying lute technique as I best can from home, using
books, the internet and some DVDs I have. I have yet to find an
available teacher anywhere near me.
I have a number of things to sort out, but the most pressing at
the
moment is my thumb-under technique. I can get a nice tone from my
fingers, but the tone produced by my thumb is harsh. I suspect
the
courses are either bumping into each other or the frets, but it is
also
just the way the thumb engages the strings. So I am looking for
advice
on the proper thumb stroke. Most of the videos I have, such Ronn
McFarlane's Mel Bay video, show the hands from front on. I have
yet to
find a video shot from above and behind the player which might be
helpful. (just found this ukulele thumb under video:
[1][8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Bab_tC20K4)
My nails are short. I believe that my hand position is reasonably
close to where it should be (i.e. it's not in the classical guitar
position).
Obviously the lute requires a much lighter thumb stroke than used
on
the guitar, but even when I use a light strike the sound produced
by my
thumb is not at all as pleasant as the sound when using my
fingers.
Does the thumb stroke primarily come from the main thumb joint?
When
playing scales the arm seems to come into use as well. But what
about
the last joint on the thumb? Players preference?
Does the thumb begin it's stroke only touching 1 string of a
course,
similar to a guitar, or does it rest on both strings, more like
the
fingers?
Is the general direction of the tip of the thumb down,
perpendicular to
the strings, or somewhat angled, down and away from the neck?
Is the portion of the thumb that touches the strings the side,
mainly
the side with a bit of the curve of the tip, mostly on the curve
of the
tip (where the nail ends), or something else?
When playing chords, my thumb is much happier when rolling chords.
When striking all the courses simultaneously, my thumb is more
likely
to run out of space and collide with my index finger.
Thank you in advance for any advice,
morgan
--
References
1. [9]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Bab_tC20K4
To get on or off this list see list information at
[10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
Sam Chapman
Oetlingerstrasse 65
4057 Basel
(0041) 79 530 39 91
--
Sam Chapman
Oetlingerstrasse 65
4057 Basel
(0041) 79 530 39 91
--
References
1. mailto:mc4...@yahoo.com
2. mailto:manchap...@gmail.com
3. mailto:mc4...@yahoo.com
4. http://lute-cs.dartmouth.edu/
5. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
6. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnpaOTGrG2M
7. mailto:mc4...@yahoo.com
8. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Bab_tC20K4
9. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Bab_tC20K4
10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
