Dear Morgan, Franz, and Ned,
I'm glad I could be of some help! If you don't have a teacher it can sometimes take years to find solutions to relatively simple problems, so by passing on things that Hoppy told me I hope to be able to speed up the process a bit! The guitar videos are indeed supposed to be thumb out! As far as I know, baroque guitar was never played thumb-in. But it's true, my thumb doesn't extend as much as it probably should. I find it quite hard to keep my little finger on the soundboard, keep the thumb out AND make a nice sound. These videos were made a few years ago though, so maybe I'd manage it better now...In any case, when I play chords with the thumb and fingers, I don't think you ever see the fingers passing over the thumb (which for me more or less defines "thumb-in" technique). All the best, Sam On 20 October 2010 17:30, Edward Mast <[1]nedma...@aol.com> wrote: Having spent some time reading and rereading - and trying - the suggestions made in his response to Morgan, I want to thank Sam for such a clear and useful analysis of RH technique. For over a year, I've been working at moving from thumb over to thumb under in the right hand (without a teacher's guidance) and Sam's observations will be helpful. His last sentence was encouraging: ". . .even with a good teacher it can take years to develop healthy technical habits." I say encouraging, for I was beginning to view my efforts as hopelessly inept. Inept, yes, but perhaps not hopeless! Thanks, Sam, and your improvisations in Morley's consort lessons are a delight. Ned On Oct 19, 2010, at 10:52 AM, mc41mc wrote: > Dear Sam, > > I didn't watch the theorbo vids, but the baroque guitar is thumb-in, > isn't it? Sure looks that way. It also looks like your thumb and > index occupy some of the same space on occasion, or at least they would > if they were playing on the same course. I suppose in that case you > would pull your thumb back a bit, and have a bit more thumb-in/under > and less thumb "above" (above because it's not really out/over or > in/under, it's pretty much directly above). For playing chords > (without rolling) it seems to help to pull the thumb back a little > also. I'm still away from my lute but have been experimenting with a > parlor guitar that's around here. > > Unnatural may be ok in this circumstance, but after decades of guitar > playing and trying hard to play "naturally", pulling my thumb way from > my index finger and pointing it more toward the soundboard feels odd. > When I watch lute players the plucking hand often looks very > comfortable, except sometimes the thumb position looks tiring. I'm > just trying to get off to a reasonably good start and not develop any > bad habits, and get a nice tone. When I watch Nigel North, he seems to > be under, over, and above depending on what he is playing. But other > players, not so much. > Thanks again for the advice, > morgan > __________________________________________________________________ > > From: Sam Chapman <[2]manchap...@gmail.com> > To: mc41mc <[3]mc4...@yahoo.com> > Cc: [4]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu > Sent: Tue, October 19, 2010 5:43:07 AM > Subject: Re: [LUTE] beginner help required for thumb under technique > Hi Morgan, > Glad you found it helpful! It's sometimes a good idea to kind of > "flatten" the thumb, i.e. turn it downwards towards the lute. Classical > guitarists tend to have a habit of sort of plucking up from the string, > and this won't sound good. If what you're doing feels a bit unnatural > that might be a good sign - shows that you're not just repeating your > old guitar habits! > Using the thumb/index is a bit like using a pick, but a really big > squashy sort of pick that covers both strings of the course! > As for the videos, I'm glad you liked them, but don't copy the > technique I use on the baroque guitar and theorbo ones (that's supposed > to be thumb-out!). If you're really stuck, you could make your own > YouTube video, post it to the list and ask for comments! > All the best, > Sam > On 19 October 2010 03:28, mc41mc <[1][5]mc4...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > Dear Sam, > > Thank you so much for the detailed response. I need to re-read it and > I am away from my lute, but already it is very helpful. > > I think I need to use more of the tip of my thumb (i.e. point it more > toward the soundboard) and less of the side (pointing toward the head > stock), and contact the second string of the course sooner. Orienting > my thumb this way, more perpendicluar to the strings, feels a little > unatural to me so I was hesitant to do it. Also, I think I was a > little bit mislead by how much thumb-index scale passages resemble > using a pick, and so assumed that the thumb could plant on a single > string and then push through to the second string, similar to a pick. > > I enjoyed the youtube clip you gave. It was hard to see your hands in > detail, but I could get a good sense of how you hold the lute. I got a > pretty good look at your hands in some of your baroque guitar clips > which were very nice. > > Thanks again, > morgan > __________________________________________________________________ > > From: Sam Chapman <[2][6]manchap...@gmail.com> > To: m cornwall <[3][7]mc4...@yahoo.com>; [4][8]lute-cs.dartmouth.edu > <[5][9]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Sent: Mon, October 18, 2010 12:13:18 PM > Subject: Re: [LUTE] beginner help required for thumb under technique > Dear Morgan, > Here are a few tips about RH technique on the lute (most of which I > picked up during my lessons with Hopkinson Smith...): > Firstly, I think most players find it much harder to get a good tone > from the thumb than from the fingers - it's something that even the > best players have to continually work on, so don't be disheartened! If > the sound is harsh it may simply be because the the skin on your thumb > is rough. Just as modern guitarists are obsessive about the > shape/smoothness of their nails, lutenists soon realise how much > difference the state of the fingertips makes to the sound produced. You > may consider avoiding doing lots of manual work (gardening, working > with tools, chopping wood etc), wearing gloves in cold weather, evading > doing the washing up, using hand creams, etc...during periods when you > plan to play the lute a lot. > If the strings are buzzing against each other or the frets, it might be > worth checking that your lute is set up really well. If the string > spacing is very narrow, or the tension is very low this might cause > buzzing. Also, if the frets are old or not quite the right guage you > might get similar problems. The best thing would be to get this checked > out by an experienced player or maker, otherwise you might waste a lot > of time! > As for the stroke itself, you might consider the following: > 1. At the start of the stroke, try to have contact with both strings of > the course. You can practice this by planting the thumb on the course > and feeling both strings under your thumb, without pushing them towards > each other. > 2. The most important thing about getting a good sound with the thumb > is to allow the arm to move freely. At the beginning you might want to > take your little finger off the soundboard, and make thumb strokes > where you simply put the thumb on the course (as above) then allow the > weight of the arm to bring the thumb through the strings from the elbow > (keeping the wrist, hand, and thumb more or less as a unit). Do this > with big exaggerated movements at the beginning, until the arm feels > very free. You can also simply strum through all the courses like this. > This can be very hard for guitarists, since the elbow is more or less > locked in place most of the time on the classical guitar. > 3. Once the arm is free and moveable you can put your little finger > back on the soundboard and do the same kind of thing, obviously making > less exaggerated movements. But generous arm movements are generally > very good (you only need to make smaller movements when you start > playing very fast passages). Your little finger and wrist need to be > quite flexible, otherwise the arm can't move. > 4. As for the thumb itself, the joint I allow to move is the third one > back from the tip (at the bass of the hand). If you are playing notes > with the fingers at the same time, the arm can't move, so the movement > comes entirely from there. For playing scale passages I use a > combination of arm and this 3rd joint (for very fast passage the arm > barely moves, but never becomes stiff). I would think of the other > thumb joints more as affecting tone quality. If you keep them rigid you > are more likely to produce a strong bright sound; if they are more > flexible your sound might be sweeter and warmer. But never use these > joints for actually producing the sound (especially the last joint!). > 5. Things like the direction the stroke takes and what part of the > thumb to use vary from player to player (and thumb to thumb!). It's > best to experiment. You will find that the kind of stroke you use > depends on the music and what kind of sound you want to produce. It's > good to practice both rest strokes and free strokes. As a general rule, > use rest strokes wherever you can, unless it's a fast scale passage or > you need to play an adjacent string with a finger. I find that I can > make a strong bright sound if I use mainly the tip, but using more of > the thumbs surface may give more warmth and is generally better for > playing runs in combination with the index. It's a good idea to > experiment with pushing the strings towards the body of the instrument > when you pluck. However, when playing real music you don't always have > time to do this, so you also need to find a way to get a good sound > with a quick stroke. In general, the thumb (also the fingers) should > never slide along the strings as you pluck, and should move in one > clear direction (S-shaped movements are not advisable!). I'm not sure I > would say that the thumb stroke is lighter on the lute than the guitar. > It's just different. If you ever play on gut basses you will see that a > very firm thumb stroke is necessary to get a good balance and quality > of sound. > 6. If your thumb sometimes collides with the other fingers this > probably has a lot to do with your general hand position (and lute > position!). However much you change what your fingers do, if you hold > the lute at a similar angle to how you would hold a guitar, and your > right hand approaches it at a similar angle, you will never develop a > good thumb-in technique. Your right hand needs to approach the > instrument at a much less acute angle, ideally so that the right > arm/wrist passes more or less over the bridge. You can achieve this by > either dropping the right shoulder as much as possible (popular, but > not advised!) or by finding a way to raise the lute so that your arm > aproaches it naturally at a less acute angle. Some players use a > footstool for the right foot, others sit on a very low chair, some > suspend the lute in mid air with a strap...I personally use a little > cushion on my right leg to raise the lute. The smaller the instrument, > the bigger the problem! The lute should also be held at a less steep > angle than a modern guitar. When you get these geometrical problems > sorted out, the chances are that your right hand will fall more or less > naturally in the correct place and you won't have problems avoiding > your thumb and fingers clashing. It shouldn't be an effort to avoid > them bumping into each other - the position of the body and the > instrument should simply make it more or less impossible (unless you > have a very long thumb or very short fingers!). > I hope this helps a bit. As you can see, this is a very large topic and > even with a good teacher it can take years to develop healthy technical > habits. Good luck! > All the best, > Sam > P.S. You can judge me thumb technique for yourself here: > [6][10]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnpaOTGrG2M > On 11 October 2010 15:50, m cornwall <[7][11]mc4...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > Howdy, > I am now the proud owner of a lovely Barber and Harris 7 course > student > lute. I have played the guitar for years, but the lute is new to > me. > I have been studying lute technique as I best can from home, using > books, the internet and some DVDs I have. I have yet to find an > available teacher anywhere near me. > I have a number of things to sort out, but the most pressing at > the > moment is my thumb-under technique. I can get a nice tone from my > fingers, but the tone produced by my thumb is harsh. I suspect > the > courses are either bumping into each other or the frets, but it is > also > just the way the thumb engages the strings. So I am looking for > advice > on the proper thumb stroke. Most of the videos I have, such Ronn > McFarlane's Mel Bay video, show the hands from front on. I have > yet to > find a video shot from above and behind the player which might be > helpful. (just found this ukulele thumb under video: > [1][8][12]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Bab_tC20K4) > My nails are short. I believe that my hand position is reasonably > close to where it should be (i.e. it's not in the classical guitar > position). > Obviously the lute requires a much lighter thumb stroke than used > on > the guitar, but even when I use a light strike the sound produced > by my > thumb is not at all as pleasant as the sound when using my > fingers. > Does the thumb stroke primarily come from the main thumb joint? > When > playing scales the arm seems to come into use as well. But what > about > the last joint on the thumb? Players preference? > Does the thumb begin it's stroke only touching 1 string of a > course, > similar to a guitar, or does it rest on both strings, more like > the > fingers? > Is the general direction of the tip of the thumb down, > perpendicular to > the strings, or somewhat angled, down and away from the neck? > Is the portion of the thumb that touches the strings the side, > mainly > the side with a bit of the curve of the tip, mostly on the curve > of the > tip (where the nail ends), or something else? > When playing chords, my thumb is much happier when rolling chords. > When striking all the courses simultaneously, my thumb is more > likely > to run out of space and collide with my index finger. > Thank you in advance for any advice, > morgan > -- > References > 1. [9][13]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Bab_tC20K4 > To get on or off this list see list information at > [10][14]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > Sam Chapman > Oetlingerstrasse 65 > 4057 Basel > (0041) 79 530 39 91 > > -- > Sam Chapman > Oetlingerstrasse 65 > 4057 Basel > (0041) 79 530 39 91 > > -- > > References > > 1. mailto:[15]mc4...@yahoo.com > 2. mailto:[16]manchap...@gmail.com > 3. mailto:[17]mc4...@yahoo.com > 4. [18]http://lute-cs.dartmouth.edu/ > 5. mailto:[19]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu > 6. [20]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnpaOTGrG2M > 7. mailto:[21]mc4...@yahoo.com > 8. [22]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Bab_tC20K4 > 9. [23]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Bab_tC20K4 > 10. [24]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91 -- References 1. mailto:nedma...@aol.com 2. mailto:manchap...@gmail.com 3. mailto:mc4...@yahoo.com 4. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. mailto:mc4...@yahoo.com 6. mailto:manchap...@gmail.com 7. mailto:mc4...@yahoo.com 8. http://lute-cs.dartmouth.edu/ 9. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 10. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnpaOTGrG2M 11. mailto:mc4...@yahoo.com 12. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Bab_tC20K4 13. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Bab_tC20K4 14. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 15. mailto:mc4...@yahoo.com 16. mailto:manchap...@gmail.com 17. mailto:mc4...@yahoo.com 18. http://lute-cs.dartmouth.edu/ 19. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 20. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnpaOTGrG2M 21. mailto:mc4...@yahoo.com 22. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Bab_tC20K4 23. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Bab_tC20K4 24. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
