Quite interesting responses to this thread. I like the stand oil idea, and as a painter I do have a jar of it. My reason for using wax at all had nothing to do with marks from the fingers, but rather with the wear. I think that the person who owned my lute before I got it played with a heavy right hand, if there is such a thing. At any rate, there is definite wearing away of the wood as well as marks. So I thought it best to add some protection (just in the area where the fingers contact the top), even though I don't think my right hand technique will be nearly as hard on the top. On Mar 24, 2011, at 10:54 AM, Martin Shepherd wrote:
> > My advice has always been that the marks of use are a badge of honour > (meaning you've actually done some practice), and trying to clean them off > may damage the lute and is futile anyway. I recommend waiting 20+ years, at > which point the soundboard will have darkened and the dirty marks are not so > obvious. > > Think of those poor deluded souls who have their new violins "antiqued" - a > wretched commentary on human vanity and foolishness. > > Musical instruments are made to be played, not inspected with a magnifying > glass. > > Best wishes, > > Martin > > On 24/03/2011 14:23, Anthony Hind wrote: >> Dear Martyn >> It seems that many waxes contain some sorts of acids, or acids >> develop >> as >> >> >> the wax breaks down (beeswax, etc), while Renaissance wax reportedly doesn't. >> >> On the other hand, >> >> "Controversy over its use >> Wax coatings are known to be susceptible to accumulations of dust and lint. >> They >> >> >> >> may also obscure some fine detail. >> Although Renaissance Wax is generally agreed to be a useful and stable >> material >> >> for conservation work, this view is not without some reservations. Owing to >> the >> >> polyethylene wax content, some authors have reported problems in removing >> it" >> >> This is very relevant for a museum article, where you need to be able to >> restore >> >> the item to its original state, less so perhaps for a lute." >> >> I have to say that I am more bothered by the marks on my Renaissance lute, >> yet >> if I was a player of note, it would be good that I left a trace. >> >> For example, you can verify that Jakob Lindberg's impressions of his RH >> technique correspond perfectly with the clear traces he leaves on his lutes. >> >> If you go to >> >> http://www.musicamano.com/ >> >> and click on "instruments" you can observe the the RH little finger traces on >> each of JL's instruments do vary progressively according to the period of the >> instrument and its size, but not in any strongly marked differentiated way >> between Renaissance (near the rose) and Baroque (nearer the bridge). >> >> JL makes this a shift in technique rather than a break (if we judge from the >> marks on his lutes); and this is indeed what JL tells ED Durbrow, in a recent >> interview. >> >> "ED: More on technique – How do you vary the technique from instrument to >> instrument? Do you have different techniques for different instruments, or do >> you have one basic technique that you kind of alter? >> >> JL: I suppose perhaps, the latter. In my way of playing, rest stroke with the >> thumb is a very central issue to how I play both renaissance and late baroque >> lute, of course. And that stroke of falling down with the thumb, giving >> volume >> and strength – That’s one thing. Of course, in later repertoire, to play the >> passage work, more and more you rely on m-i, rather than p-i. That, in >> itself, >> opens up the hand slightly differently. >> >> So, if I play early six-course repertoire, my lute is more horizontal, >> which >> means that thumb inside is more natural. If I play later style, the lute is >> more >> >> upright, and so, when thumb and forefinger meet, they can meet on the other >> side, and in any case, mostly the thumb is out, and the running passages >> work is >> >> being done by m-i. But it’s a gradual development, and you can see in >> iconography as well, how in medieval paintings the lute is at least >> horizontal. >> And you get to the later, and it’s more and more upright. And the whole thing >> hangs together. So a ten-course lute style is somewhere in the middle there. >> There I use both i-m and p-i. It sort of naturally flows from one to the >> other. >> But in recitals nowadays, I usually don’t mix two much extreme techniques, >> so >> that I won’t necessarily put half of six-course lute in a Weiss second half." >> >> I will try the oxidized linseed oil. >> Regards >> Anthony >> >> >> >> >> >> >> For >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> De : Martyn Hodgson<hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> >> À : Anthony Hind<agno3ph...@yahoo.com> >> Envoyé le : Jeu 24 mars 2011, 14h 48min 48s >> Objet : Re: Re : [LUTE] Re: Wax >> >> >> Not really, >> >> The Stand Oil does not significantly penetrate into the wood (it's much too >> thick/viscous to transmit throught the pores) - it acts like a sirface coat >> (much as your wax). So it does not change the tone and is nothing like the >> treatment of wood that the Old Ones may, or may not, have used. >> >> It's advantage is many centuries of experience and knowledge (used in ancient >> Greece), known use for various purposes in early instrument makers workshops >> and >> >> >> >> absolutel inertness and ability to easily recoat (if required). I wonder >> about >> Renaissance wax using, as it does, distllation products from crude oil and >> whether or not it will remain inert over many centuries/decades. There are >> many >> examples of conservation practice once thought cutting edge now utterly >> disredited. My advice - if you use anything use stand oil or leave it alone - >> the wood will darken in a decade or two. >> >> Incidentally to make Stand Oil simply pour raw linseed oil into a dish and >> leave >> >> >> >> to...... stand. You can occasionaly test it. I reckon a few months will >> oxidise >> is to good thick treacle. >> >> Martyn >> >> --- On Thu, 24/3/11, Anthony Hind<agno3ph...@yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> >>> From: Anthony Hind<agno3ph...@yahoo.com> >>> Subject: Re : [LUTE] Re: Wax >>> To: "Martyn Hodgson"<hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> >>> Date: Thursday, 24 March, 2011, 12:58 >>> >>> >>> >>> Dear Martyn >>> I have tried linseed oil with a fixing or drying agent on wood work; but >>> this is clearly not the same, as it does not have the treacle quality you >>> mention. >>> >>> I take it this is more for "varnishing" a completed new lute, rather than >>> to be >> >> >>> added to a lute that has already been polished by the lute maker (French >>> polish >> >> >>> or other). >>> >>> I imagine the resulting "varnish" would make to table hard and so give >>> carbon-like properties (greater speed of propogation), rather like treating >>> the >> >> >>> wood with Borax, or other salts. >>> >>> Regards >>> Anthony >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> ________________________________ >> De : Martyn Hodgson<hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> >>> À : Anthony Hind<agno3ph...@yahoo.com> >>> Envoyé le : Jeu 24 mars 2011, 11h 08min 37s >>> Objet : Re: [LUTE] Re: Wax >>> >>> >>> Dear Anthony, >>> >>> Have you tried 'Stand Oil'? - Linseed oil allowed to stand until it starts >>> to >>> oxidise to the consistency of treacle. It needs to be put on with a rubber >>> since >>> >>> >>> >>> it's far too viscous to paint on - hence does not pentrate into the wood but >>> leaves a very thin coat which oxidises hard in a few days. NB NOT modern >>> commercial so called stand oil which is usually just boiledlinseed oil with >>> chemical driers. >>> >>> I believe Stand Oil is what was used originally - certainly an opiled >>> finish was >>> >>> >>> >>> very common on furniture before the advent of 'French' polishing. >>> >>> rgds >>> >>> Martyn >>> >>> PS Did you eventualy get the pic of the lute player holding his instrument >>> with >> >> >>> tapes? >>> ' >>> --- On Thu, 24/3/11, Anthony Hind<agno3ph...@yahoo.com> wrote: >>> >>> >>>> From: Anthony Hind<agno3ph...@yahoo.com> >>>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Wax >>>> To: "Bruno Correia"<bruno.l...@gmail.com>, lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >>>> Date: Thursday, 24 March, 2011, 9:44 >>>> >>>> >>>> Dear Bruno >>>> Thanks for reminding me, I try to use Renaissance wax fairly >>>> regularly; it does seem to protect my Baroque lute. I did not treat my >>>> Renaissance lute at the outset, and it is quite marked by my little >>>> finger (due to acidity, no doubt). >>>> Of course the difference might also be due to the difference in >>>> "varnish" that the two lute makers used; but Stephen Gottlieb was quite >>>> surprised by the unmarked quality of my Barouqe lute's table; and he >>>> wondered if it was because I was careful, or if I didn't play all that >>>> often. >>>> I thought I might have lost the tin, but I have just found it; but >>>> there are no details about the formula on the tin. It just says >>>> micro-crystaline wax polish, as used by the British museum. I notice >>>> Miguel Serdoura suggests not only using Renaissance wax, but also >>>> gently washing the table at the point of contact with weak soapy water. >>>> I haven't tried that. >>>> Regards >>>> Anthony >>>> __________________________________________________________________ >>>> >>>> De : Bruno Correia<bruno.l...@gmail.com> >>>> A : Edward Mast<nedma...@aol.com> >>>> Cc : List LUTELIST<lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >>>> Envoye le : Jeu 24 mars 2011, 3h 47min 16s >>>> Objet : [LUTE] Re: Wax >>>> Hi Edward, >>>> Interesting, I'll check the formula, if there is one... >>>> Just for curiosity, how do you mix these waxes? >>>> 2011/3/23 Edward Mast<[1][1]nedma...@aol.com> >>>> Bruno, >>>> I'm not familiar with this wax. But Robert Lundberg - in his book >>>> "Historical Lute Construction" - gives two formulas for a wax to >>>> use >>>> on the top. The simplest one is: 2 parts beeswax, 1 part carnauba >>>> wax, 6 parts turpentine. Perhaps before buying, you can find what >>>> the formula of the Renaissance wax is. >>>> On Mar 23, 2011, at 5:32 PM, Bruno Correia wrote: >>>> > Is this product (Ranaissance wax) advisable to use on the top of >>>> the >>>> > lute? I think somebody mentioned it in the list... >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> >>>> [1][2][2]http://www.amazon.com/Picreator-65mL-can-Renaissance-Micro-Cry >>>> sta >>>> lli >>>> > ne/dp/B001DSZWEM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1300899218&sr=8-1 >>>> > >>>> > -- >>>> > >>>> > References >>>> > >>>> > 1. >>>> >>>> [3][3]http://www.amazon.com/Picreator-65mL-can-Renaissance-Micro-Crysta >>>> lli >>>> ne/dp/B001DSZWEM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1300899218&sr=8-1 >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > To get on or off this list see list information at >>>> > [4][4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>> -- >>>> References >>>> 1. mailto:[5]nedma...@aol.com >>>> 2. >>>> [6]http://www.amazon.com/Picreator-65mL-can-Renaissance-Micro-Crystalli >>>> 3. >>>> [7]http://www.amazon.com/Picreator-65mL-can-Renaissance-Micro-Crystalli >>>> ne/dp/B001DSZWEM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1300899218&sr=8-1 >>>> 4. [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> References >>>> >>>> 1. mailto:nedma...@aol.com >>>> 2. http://www.amazon.com/Picreator-65mL-can-Renaissance-Micro-Crysta >>>> 3. http://www.amazon.com/Picreator-65mL-can-Renaissance-Micro-Crystalli >>>> 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>> 5. mailto:nedma...@aol.com >>>> 6. http://www.amazon.com/Picreator-65mL-can-Renaissance-Micro-Crystalli >>>> 7. >>>> http://www.amazon.com/Picreator-65mL-can-Renaissance-Micro-Crystalline/dp/B001DSZWEM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1300899218&sr=8-1 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >> >> > >
