Dear Martin,
I prefer the sight of a clean white top than an old dark and greased
one. Anyway, my concern is about the protection of the soundboard. The
top of my 23 years old archlute (preowned btw) looks good, but I can't
see any trace of the varnish. If the instrument is left as it is, could
the humidity or age by itself damage the instrument?
Also, in classical guitars the varnish helps to enhance the sound of
the instrument, as Jose Ramirez III wrote in his biography of the
Ramirez family.
Appreciate your coments.
2011/3/24 Martin Shepherd <[1]mar...@luteshop.co.uk>
My advice has always been that the marks of use are a badge of
honour (meaning you've actually done some practice), and trying to
clean them off may damage the lute and is futile anyway. I
recommend waiting 20+ years, at which point the soundboard will have
darkened and the dirty marks are not so obvious.
Think of those poor deluded souls who have their new violins
"antiqued" - a wretched commentary on human vanity and foolishness.
Musical instruments are made to be played, not inspected with a
magnifying glass.
Best wishes,
Martin
On 24/03/2011 14:23, Anthony Hind wrote:
Dear Martyn
It seems that many waxes contain some sorts of acids, or
acids develop
as
the wax breaks down (beeswax, etc), while Renaissance wax reportedly
doesn't.
On the other hand,
"Controversy over its use
Wax coatings are known to be susceptible to accumulations of dust
and lint. They
may also obscure some fine detail.
Although Renaissance Wax is generally agreed to be a useful and
stable material
for conservation work, this view is not without some reservations.
Owing to the
polyethylene wax content, some authors have reported problems in
removing it"
This is very relevant for a museum article, where you need to be
able to restore
the item to its original state, less so perhaps for a lute."
I have to say that I am more bothered by the marks on my Renaissance
lute, yet
if I was a player of note, it would be good that I left a trace.
For example, you can verify that Jakob Lindberg's impressions of his
RH
technique correspond perfectly with the clear traces he leaves on
his lutes.
If you go to
[2]http://www.musicamano.com/
and click on "instruments" you can observe the the RH little finger
traces on
each of JL's instruments do vary progressively according to the
period of the
instrument and its size, but not in any strongly marked
differentiated way
between Renaissance (near the rose) and Baroque (nearer the bridge).
JL makes this a shift in technique rather than a break (if we judge
from the
marks on his lutes); and this is indeed what JL tells ED Durbrow, in
a recent
interview.
"ED: More on technique - How do you vary the technique from
instrument to
instrument? Do you have different techniques for different
instruments, or do
you have one basic technique that you kind of alter?
JL: I suppose perhaps, the latter. In my way of playing, rest stroke
with the
thumb is a very central issue to how I play both renaissance and
late baroque
lute, of course. And that stroke of falling down with the thumb,
giving volume
and strength - That's one thing. Of course, in later repertoire, to
play the
passage work, more and more you rely on m-i, rather than p-i. That,
in itself,
opens up the hand slightly differently.
So, if I play early six-course repertoire, my lute is more
horizontal, which
means that thumb inside is more natural. If I play later style, the
lute is more
upright, and so, when thumb and forefinger meet, they can meet on
the other
side, and in any case, mostly the thumb is out, and the running
passages work is
being done by m-i. But it's a gradual development, and you can see
in
iconography as well, how in medieval paintings the lute is at least
horizontal.
And you get to the later, and it's more and more upright. And the
whole thing
hangs together. So a ten-course lute style is somewhere in the
middle there.
There I use both i-m and p-i. It sort of naturally flows from one to
the other.
But in recitals nowadays, I usually don't mix two much extreme
techniques, so
that I won't necessarily put half of six-course lute in a Weiss
second half."
I will try the oxidized linseed oil.
Regards
Anthony
For
________________________________
De : Martyn Hodgson<[3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
A : Anthony Hind<[4]agno3ph...@yahoo.com>
Envoye le : Jeu 24 mars 2011, 14h 48min 48s
Objet : Re: Re : [LUTE] Re: Wax
Not really,
The Stand Oil does not significantly penetrate into the wood (it's
much too
thick/viscous to transmit throught the pores) - it acts like a
sirface coat
(much as your wax). So it does not change the tone and is nothing
like the
treatment of wood that the Old Ones may, or may not, have used.
It's advantage is many centuries of experience and knowledge (used
in ancient
Greece), known use for various purposes in early instrument makers
workshops and
absolutel inertness and ability to easily recoat (if required). I
wonder about
Renaissance wax using, as it does, distllation products from crude
oil and
whether or not it will remain inert over many centuries/decades.
There are many
examples of conservation practice once thought cutting edge now
utterly
disredited. My advice - if you use anything use stand oil or leave
it alone -
the wood will darken in a decade or two.
Incidentally to make Stand Oil simply pour raw linseed oil into a
dish and leave
to...... stand. You can occasionaly test it. I reckon a few months
will oxidise
is to good thick treacle.
Martyn
--- On Thu, 24/3/11, Anthony Hind<[5]agno3ph...@yahoo.com> wrote:
From: Anthony Hind<[6]agno3ph...@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re : [LUTE] Re: Wax
To: "Martyn Hodgson"<[7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
Date: Thursday, 24 March, 2011, 12:58
Dear Martyn
I have tried linseed oil with a fixing or drying agent on wood
work; but
this is clearly not the same, as it does not have the treacle
quality you
mention.
I take it this is more for "varnishing" a completed new lute, rather
than to be
added to a lute that has already been polished by the lute maker
(French polish
or other).
I imagine the resulting "varnish" would make to table hard and so
give
carbon-like properties (greater speed of propogation), rather like
treating the
wood with Borax, or other salts.
Regards
Anthony
________________________________
De : Martyn Hodgson<[8]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
A : Anthony Hind<[9]agno3ph...@yahoo.com>
Envoye le : Jeu 24 mars 2011, 11h 08min 37s
Objet : Re: [LUTE] Re: Wax
Dear Anthony,
Have you tried 'Stand Oil'? - Linseed oil allowed to stand until it
starts to
oxidise to the consistency of treacle. It needs to be put on with a
rubber since
it's far too viscous to paint on - hence does not pentrate into the
wood but
leaves a very thin coat which oxidises hard in a few days. NB NOT
modern
commercial so called stand oil which is usually just boiledlinseed
oil with
chemical driers.
I believe Stand Oil is what was used originally - certainly an
opiled finish was
very common on furniture before the advent of 'French' polishing.
rgds
Martyn
PS Did you eventualy get the pic of the lute player holding his
instrument with
tapes?
'
--- On Thu, 24/3/11, Anthony Hind<[10]agno3ph...@yahoo.com> wrote:
From: Anthony Hind<[11]agno3ph...@yahoo.com>
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Wax
To: "Bruno Correia"<[12]bruno.l...@gmail.com>,
[13]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Thursday, 24 March, 2011, 9:44
Dear Bruno
Thanks for reminding me, I try to use Renaissance wax fairly
regularly; it does seem to protect my Baroque lute. I did not
treat my
Renaissance lute at the outset, and it is quite marked by my
little
finger (due to acidity, no doubt).
Of course the difference might also be due to the difference in
"varnish" that the two lute makers used; but Stephen Gottlieb was
quite
surprised by the unmarked quality of my Barouqe lute's table; and
he
wondered if it was because I was careful, or if I didn't play all
that
often.
I thought I might have lost the tin, but I have just found it; but
there are no details about the formula on the tin. It just says
micro-crystaline wax polish, as used by the British museum. I
notice
Miguel Serdoura suggests not only using Renaissance wax, but also
gently washing the table at the point of contact with weak soapy
water.
I haven't tried that.
Regards
Anthony
__________________________________________________________________
De : Bruno Correia<[14]bruno.l...@gmail.com>
A : Edward Mast<[15]nedma...@aol.com>
Cc : List LUTELIST<[16]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Envoye le : Jeu 24 mars 2011, 3h 47min 16s
Objet : [LUTE] Re: Wax
Hi Edward,
Interesting, I'll check the formula, if there is one...
Just for curiosity, how do you mix these waxes?
2011/3/23 Edward Mast<[1][1][17]nedma...@aol.com>
Bruno,
I'm not familiar with this wax. But Robert Lundberg - in his
book
"Historical Lute Construction" - gives two formulas for a wax
to
use
on the top. The simplest one is: 2 parts beeswax, 1 part
carnauba
wax, 6 parts turpentine. Perhaps before buying, you can find
what
the formula of the Renaissance wax is.
On Mar 23, 2011, at 5:32 PM, Bruno Correia wrote:
> Is this product (Ranaissance wax) advisable to use on the
top of
the
> lute? I think somebody mentioned it in the list...
>
>
>
>
[1][2][2][18]http://www.amazon.com/Picreator-65mL-can-Renaissance-Mi
cro-Cry
sta
lli
> ne/dp/B001DSZWEM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1300899218&sr=8-1
>
> --
>
> References
>
> 1.
[3][3][19]http://www.amazon.com/Picreator-65mL-can-Renaissance-Micro
-Crysta
lli
ne/dp/B001DSZWEM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1300899218&sr=8-1
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
>
[4][4][20]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. mailto:[5][21]nedma...@aol.com
2.
[6][22]http://www.amazon.com/Picreator-65mL-can-Renaissance-Micro-Cr
ystalli
3.
[7][23]http://www.amazon.com/Picreator-65mL-can-Renaissance-Micro-Cr
ystalli
ne/dp/B001DSZWEM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1300899218&sr=8-1
4. [8][24]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. mailto:[25]nedma...@aol.com
2.
[26]http://www.amazon.com/Picreator-65mL-can-Renaissance-Micro-Cryst
a
3.
[27]http://www.amazon.com/Picreator-65mL-can-Renaissance-Micro-Cryst
alli
4. [28]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
5. mailto:[29]nedma...@aol.com
6.
[30]http://www.amazon.com/Picreator-65mL-can-Renaissance-Micro-Cryst
alli
7.
[31]http://www.amazon.com/Picreator-65mL-can-Renaissance-Micro-Cryst
alline/dp/B001DSZWEM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1300899218&sr=8-1
8. [32]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. mailto:mar...@luteshop.co.uk
2. http://www.musicamano.com/
3. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
4. mailto:agno3ph...@yahoo.com
5. mailto:agno3ph...@yahoo.com
6. mailto:agno3ph...@yahoo.com
7. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
8. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
9. mailto:agno3ph...@yahoo.com
10. mailto:agno3ph...@yahoo.com
11. mailto:agno3ph...@yahoo.com
12. mailto:bruno.l...@gmail.com
13. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
14. mailto:bruno.l...@gmail.com
15. mailto:nedma...@aol.com
16. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
17. mailto:nedma...@aol.com
18. http://www.amazon.com/Picreator-65mL-can-Renaissance-Micro-Cry
19. http://www.amazon.com/Picreator-65mL-can-Renaissance-Micro-Crysta
20. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
21. mailto:nedma...@aol.com
22. http://www.amazon.com/Picreator-65mL-can-Renaissance-Micro-Crystalli
23. http://www.amazon.com/Picreator-65mL-can-Renaissance-Micro-Crystalli
24. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
25. mailto:nedma...@aol.com
26. http://www.amazon.com/Picreator-65mL-can-Renaissance-Micro-Crysta
27. http://www.amazon.com/Picreator-65mL-can-Renaissance-Micro-Crystalli
28. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
29. mailto:nedma...@aol.com
30. http://www.amazon.com/Picreator-65mL-can-Renaissance-Micro-Crystalli
31.
http://www.amazon.com/Picreator-65mL-can-Renaissance-Micro-Crystalline/dp/B001DSZWEM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1300899218&sr=8-1
32. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
