There was a mistake in my prior post: > In PL-Wn396, fol 44v, there are three different ornaments, viz. comma, > cross and half-moon below. The cross once appears with an unstopped > course. > So, if the comma means an appogiatura from above, the _CROSS_ (!!!) > necessarily means a trill starting from the upper note. Then the > half-moon probably means an appogiatura from below.
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Grzegorz Joachimiak [mailto:gjoachim...@wp.pl] wrote > I think > piece from so-called ms. Schaffgotsch has a lot of errors. There concern mainly > intervals, absence of some letters, and differents of rhythm. Yes, missing letters and letters on wrong lines. But as for differing rhythms, I beg to differ. I'd like to believe that Saizenay is a fairly late and elaborated source as regards rhythms, whereas this tombeau in Schaffgotsch (PL-Wn 396 cim) was copied from an earlier source as its notated rhythms and ornaments are kept very simple. I compare it to the skeleton-like notations in the Rhetorique des Dieux in that its utterly simple notations are intended to serve as a basis for interpretation. > But you asked > about ornamnets. I thought about comma ornaments. In PL-Wn 396 Cim. they > are not look the same in my opinion. So maybe comma ornament with bigger > curve (tunny) are appogiaturas (from above) and comma with smaller tunny are > mordents (also from above). But there is also a comma with smaller tunny and > with crosswise short line. It could be a mordent from below. I can't see commas of different breadths of stroke (if that is what you meant to suggest) in the tombeau in PL-Wn 396 cim. Only - commas on the right of a letter (1st half: bar 4 on beat 1, bar on 6 beats 2 and 4, bar 7 on beats 1and 2 and 4; 2nd half: bar 2 on beat 3, bar 3 on beat 2-and, bar 4 on beat 1, bar 7 on beats 1 and 3, bar 8 on beat 2-and) - crosses (1st half: bar 2 on beat 2, bar 5 on beat 3; 2nd half: bar 2 on beat 3-and, bar 3 on beat 4, bar 6 on beat 4, bar 7 on beats 2 and 4, bar 8 on beast 3) and half-moons below letters. Comparison of the concordances shows that the half-moons denote an appoggiatura from below / chute / fall (e. g. bar 1 on beat 3, or bar 3 on beat 3). However, Wn-396 has half-moons at a number of places where the concordances read commas, and that considerably changes the flow of the line. What is funny is a place like bar 3 on beat 1. There, Wn 396 reads an appoggiatura from below on B flat (half-moon below 2i), whereas the concordances read an appoggiatura from above on B natural (comma on 1g). That will hardly be a slip of the pen. You could argue that most of the half-moons are errors. One way of explaining B flat on 2i instead of B natural on 1g could be that the scribe intabulated from staff notation. That would or could explain as well those mistaken ornaments (if they are mistakes), i. e. half-moon where there should be commas. But what if these deviations are _not_ mistakes? How is one to play this tombeau from Wn 396? > For me is interesting too an > chordal conclusion in Schaffgotsch ms. In any other sources I did not find ending > like here. And this chords have all of component (prime-third-fifth). Yes, another deviation, indeed. Wn 396 keeps the rhythmic structure, though, and it is more correct than the other versions in terms of metre in that it has a dotted crotched in the end, compensating for the initial upbeat, whereas the concordances have a minim in the end. Mathias > Dnia 2-06-2011 o godz. 0:28 Mathias Roesel napisał(a): > > Dear everybody, > > > > is someone familiar with the Tombeau de Mazarin? Pls find sources and > > concordances at > > http://mss.slweiss.de/index.php?id=2&type=ms&lang=deu&ms=PL- > Wn396&page > > =44v > > > > In PL-Wn396, fol 44v, there are three different ornaments, viz. comma, > > cross and half-moon below. The cross once appears with an unstopped > > course. > > So, if > > the comma means an appogiatura from above, the comma necessarily means > > a trill starting from the upper note. Then the half-moon probably > > means an appogiatura from below. > > > > If that is so, my impression is that the melody is intentionally > > disfigured not only in Wn 396 but also in A-Krems79 (#164 on fol. > > 89v), A-Wn17706 (fol. > > 17v) and even in Saizenay (#167). > > > > Also in this piece, there are tediously repeated phrases which belong > > to the Italian style of baroque composing, but would be carefully > > avoided in French baroque lute music. > > > > Is it supposable that this tombeau is not a tombstone of beloved > > memory, but a mockery, rather, aimed at the pet-hated Italian cardinal > > who overcame the uprising of the Fronde? > > > > Any ideas? > > > > Mathias > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >
