Hi Martin,
No - It was certainly forefinger and pinky and it was 180 degrees. I
was stunned when I saw it. I think Diana must naturally have had great
flexibility in her hands. Personally, I can achieve about 90 degrees,
but then I don't do any exercises like that. As far as I can remember
the exercise was to place all four fingers on successive frets, then
one finger at a time, starting with the pinky, move the finger up one
fret. It it's too much of a stretch you start at a higher position on
the fingerboard, and work your way down as your stretch improves. The
reverse sequence can also be used, starting by moving the forefinger
down one fret and so on.
I do take your point about caution - We all know what happened to
Robert Schumann's right hand when he tried to use some sort of device
to pull his fingers apart. So gently does it!
Bill
PS I'd say Eugene's photo is overdoing it a bit :D
From: Martin Shepherd <mar...@luteshop.co.uk>
To: Lute List <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Thursday, 18 August 2011, 8:38
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Renaissance lute & string length
Bill,
Did you mean thumb and little finger, or do you mean 90 degrees? I
would advise caution about using any exercises to increase it,
anyway.
M
On 18/08/2011 08:08, William Samson wrote:
Interesting topic.
Talking of small hands and stretches, I had lessons from Diana
Poulton
in the late 60s and early 70s. She had small hands, but when
she fanned out her left hand fingers, her forefinger and little
finger
were 180 degrees apart - in other words they lay on the same straight
line. She showed me some fingerboard exercises she did to maintain
this, though I don't remember exactly how they went.
Bill Samson
From: Eugene Kurenko [1]<[1]eugene.kure...@gmail.com>
To: Edward Mast [2]<[2]nedma...@aol.com>
Cc: Martin Shepherd [3]<[3]mar...@luteshop.co.uk>; Lute List
[4]<[4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Thursday, 18 August 2011, 7:41
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Renaissance lute & string length
I play on 67cm and it's tuned in "g" A=440. It's possible to tune
it
even in "a" A=440.
2011/8/17 Edward Mast <[1][5][5]nedma...@aol.com>
Hello Martin,
Thank you for your observations on historical lute sizes and
string lengths. When you say that the 67cm size is perfect for
us,
I'm not sure if you're talking about a g lute tuned to A=440, or
a
lower tuning. (Since I play with ensemble players whose
instruments
are at A=440, I'm rather tied to that pitch).
The examples of fingerings you give are interesting. I can
particularly see that the example from Waissel (c1c2d3c6,
assuming
he used 2nd finger on c6) might result in more consistent
clarity.
-Ned
On Aug 17, 2011, at 8:55 AM, Martin Shepherd wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I don't think there was ever a "norm" for string length. Lutes
were
always made in a variety of sizes, and if our focus today is on
solo
lute music that is not necessarily typical of what happened in the
past. Many people sang to the lute, and the guiding principle
would
have been whether the size (therefore pitch) of the lute was
suitable
for your voice.
>
> To the extent that there were some more or less standard sizes in
northern Italy in the the late 16th C, they are 44cm, about 59cm,
about
67cm, and about 78 cm (with a putative "bass" of about 88cm rather
lacking in historical examples). In terms of the fossil record,
the
67cm size is probably the commonest, but one could debate whether
or
not that was the size most commonly used for solo music. The 59cm
and
67cm sizes are a tone apart, which suggests they may be the sizes
intended for tone apart duets, for instance, and by implication,
also
suitable for solos (in the Matelart duets, one part is a solo).
>
> Modern lutenists have been unduly fixated on the idea that a lute
must be "in G" and at modern pitch and have therefore gravitated
towards the 59cm size, whereas historically things were obviously
much
more varied. In fact the 67cm size is perfect for us, as we tend
to
be
a bit larger than our Renaissance forbears. Paul O'Dette has very
small hands and a marvellous technique, and I doubt that
"stretches"
per se figure very largely in his calculations.
>
> Just for the record, I have quite small hands (not as small as
Paul),
and I can play that Ab chord (f1b2d4b6) on my 67cm lute quite
comfortably, so I reckon most people can manage that size of lute
reasonably well. I know people's hands vary not just in size, but
in
stretch, and I agree with all the notes of caution about not
straining
yourself.
>
> One interesting thing about historical lute fingerings is how
they
depart from modern "norms". Just to give a couple of examples,
there
are times when it makes sense to use the first and second finger
"the
wrong way round" when they are required on the same fret (e.g.
c1a4c5
can be played with the first finger on the first course and the
second
on the fifth course, as documented by Newsidler); and using one
finger
to cover two courses (e.g. a1b2b3d5, h1f3f4d6, f1c2d3e4e5c6; and an
interesting example from Waissel, c1c2d3c6, where most of us would
use
a barre, but he preferred to cover the first two courses with the
first
finger.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Martin
>
> On 10/08/2011 17:58, Edward Mast wrote:
>> The more I read about the lute during the 16th century, the more
it
seems to me that the norm for string length then was closer to 65
cm
than the 60 cm which seems more favored and common today. Are we
(myself included) - who choose the shorter mensur - wimps? If
classical guitarists of all shapes and sizes can manage a 64 cm
mensur,
should we lutenists not be able to do likewise? Just wondering . .
.
>> -Ned
>>
>>
>>
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> [2][6][6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>
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