Here here. Edit away Monica. I'm not a scholar, simply a humble lute player who relies on all sorts of sources (Grove being one…) for my learning and historical context for my instrument. Personally I'd prefer Wiki was edited by the scholars that know, rather than remain out of date or full of simply fanciful information. Even if it means a few opinions being put forward regarding current research.
I'll try both the sources below. Thanks. Claudia On 15/03/2012, at 9:32 AM, roman turovsky wrote: > In that case: edit away! > More power to you. Wikipedia needs you! > RT > > From: "Monica Hall" <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> >> Thanks for your kind words. Much of it well documented. Try checking RILM >> ot he British Library Catalogue. >> >> Monica >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roman Turovsky" <r.turov...@verizon.net> >> To: "Monica Hall" <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> >> Cc: "Lutelist" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 8:32 PM >> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Wikipedia >> >> >>> I know nothing about BG, and less about you, but if your data is >>> well-documented >>> to PUBLISHED (NOT self-published) material with page ##: is should be OK. >>> RT >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Monica Hall" <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> >>> To: "Roman Turovsky" <r.turov...@gmail.com> >>> Cc: "Lutelist" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >>> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 4:25 PM >>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Wikipedia >>> >>> >>>> As far as Santiago de Murcia and the baroque guitar is concerned I am >>>> generally considered to be one of them (although perhaps not by you). >>>> >>>> Monica >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roman Turovsky" <r.turov...@gmail.com> >>>> To: "Monica Hall" <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> >>>> Cc: "Lutelist" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 8:23 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Wikipedia >>>> >>>> >>>>> should be acceptable then. >>>>> RT >>>>> >>>>> From: "Monica Hall" <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> >>>>>> What happens if you happen to be one of the scholarly third parties? >>>>>> >>>>>> Monica >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roman Turovsky" >>>>>> <r.turov...@gmail.com> >>>>>> To: "lutenet" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 6:35 PM >>>>>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Wikipedia >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Wikipedia has strict rules against Original Research, >>>>>>> all information must be reliably sourced to scholarly 3rd parties. >>>>>>> So in the contest beteen Grove and Monica the former would still trump >>>>>>> the latter. >>>>>>> RT >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Monica Hall" <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> >>>>>>> To: "A. J. Ness" <arthurjn...@verizon.net> >>>>>>> Cc: "Lutelist" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 1:35 PM >>>>>>> Subject: [LUTE] Wikipedia >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dear Art >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Yes - I just did. What a lot of meaningless jargon. Wikipedia is a >>>>>>>> mixed blessing but it does have one advantage - it can be updated very >>>>>>>> quickly. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The entry for Santiago de Murcia gives his correct biographical >>>>>>>> details but Grove On Line still has the largely fictional biography of >>>>>>>> him - in spite of the fact that I complained about when it was first >>>>>>>> written and more recently after Alejandro Vera had unearthed his >>>>>>>> baptismal and burial records. A lot of the other entries relating to >>>>>>>> the baroque guitar in Groves are also inaccurate but the current >>>>>>>> editorial staff couldn't care less. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Moral of this tale - never believe what other people say.... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I must plead guilty to occasionally amending Wiki entries myself when >>>>>>>> I have nothing better to do! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Monica. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "A. J. Ness" >>>>>>>> <arthurjn...@verizon.net> >>>>>>>> To: "Monica Hall" <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> >>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 3:37 PM >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Nazi rules for jazz performers >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Dear Monica, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Take a look at the article "Pitch" in W'pedia. It's pure jargon. >>>>>>>>> Sometimes >>>>>>>>> these articles are written by persons without an understanding of the >>>>>>>>> subject manner. So they emphasize (or try to emphasize) what they >>>>>>>>> cannot >>>>>>>>> understand, as here. And bibliographies are usually deficient of the >>>>>>>>> basic >>>>>>>>> sources, e.g., Ellis and Mendel. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> A few years ago there was an article in the Boston Globe about two >>>>>>>>> high >>>>>>>>> school students (ca. 17 year olds) who (between the two of them) had >>>>>>>>> written >>>>>>>>> 1000 articles for the Wikipedia. That is an explanation for the poor >>>>>>>>> quality of many articles. But looks good on a college application. >>>>>>>>> (As >>>>>>>>> does playing the lute.<g>) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Arthur. >>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Monica Hall" >>>>>>>>> <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> >>>>>>>>> To: "Mark Wheeler" <l...@pantagruel.de> >>>>>>>>> Cc: "Lutelist" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 8:42 AM >>>>>>>>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Nazi rules for jazz performers >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Well - I would take anything Wikipedia said with a large pinch of >>>>>>>>>> salt. >>>>>>>>>> I have just finished reading Hywel Williams study of Charlemagne and >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> Carolingian Empire which has a couple of pages on the subject of >>>>>>>>>> spread of >>>>>>>>>> Roman chant northwards. He says nothing about the clergy being >>>>>>>>>> forced to >>>>>>>>>> use it on pain of death. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I can't quote the whole section in the book but needless to say it >>>>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>>>> much more complicated than that. Among other things chant as >>>>>>>>>> performed >>>>>>>>>> in Rome did not remain static. There were significant changes to it >>>>>>>>>> during the period in question. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> What Williams concludes by saying is - >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> "A uniform chant remained the Carolingian goal and a New Hymnal was >>>>>>>>>> issued during the reign of Louis the Pious (Charlemagne's son). But >>>>>>>>>> Gregorian chant as it evolved during the next two centuries was a >>>>>>>>>> synthesis of Carolingian, ancient Roman and the Gallican plainchant >>>>>>>>>> which >>>>>>>>>> had prevailed under the Merovingians". >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Monica >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Wheeler" >>>>>>>>>> <l...@pantagruel.de> >>>>>>>>>> To: "Tony" <ascbrigh...@yahoo.co.uk> >>>>>>>>>> Cc: <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 1:11 AM >>>>>>>>>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Nazi rules for jazz performers >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Ironically fitting for this thread, the domination of Gregorian >>>>>>>>>>> Chant >>>>>>>>>>> over other forms of chant came through the use of extremely >>>>>>>>>>> draconian >>>>>>>>>>> methods... >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> "Gregorian chant appeared in a remarkably uniform state across >>>>>>>>>>> Europe >>>>>>>>>>> within a short time. Charlemagne, once elevated to Holy Roman >>>>>>>>>>> Emperor, >>>>>>>>>>> aggressively spread Gregorian chant throughout his empire to >>>>>>>>>>> consolidate >>>>>>>>>>> religious and secular power, requiring the clergy to use the new >>>>>>>>>>> repertory on pain of death." >>>>>>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregorian_chant >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Mark >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 14, 2012, at 12:01 AM, Tony wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks Gary >>>>>>>>>>>> I tried to find information about what the church prohibited in >>>>>>>>>>>> medieval and renaissance Europe( some of you here may have some >>>>>>>>>>>> useful >>>>>>>>>>>> links) While searching for the Council of Trent I came across this >>>>>>>>>>>> list, a summary of approved music >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The Church's doctrine on liturgical music can be summarized in >>>>>>>>>>>> seven >>>>>>>>>>>> points .... >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> 1 Types of Music Appropriate for the Mass. The music of the Mass >>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>> the Sacred Liturgy of the must be either Gregorian Chant, or must >>>>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>>> similar to Gregorian Chant. The primary example of music similar >>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> Gregorian Chant is Sacred Polyphony, exemplified by the >>>>>>>>>>>> compositions >>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> Palestrina. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> 2 Characteristics of Music Appropriate for the Mass. The music of >>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> Mass must have "grandeur yet simplicity; solemnity and majesty," >>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>> must have "dignity," and "gravity," should be "exalted" and >>>>>>>>>>>> "sublime," >>>>>>>>>>>> should bring "splendor and devotion" to the liturgy, and must be >>>>>>>>>>>> conducive to prayer and liturgical participation, rather than >>>>>>>>>>>> distracting the listener from prayer. It must be music that >>>>>>>>>>>> befits the >>>>>>>>>>>> profound nature of the Mass, which is the Sacrifice of Jesus >>>>>>>>>>>> Christ. >>>>>>>>>>>> As >>>>>>>>>>>> Pope Paul VI put it: "The primary purpose of sacred music is to >>>>>>>>>>>> evoke >>>>>>>>>>>> God's majesty and to honor it. But at the same time music is >>>>>>>>>>>> meant to >>>>>>>>>>>> be a solemn affirmation of the most genuine nobility of the human >>>>>>>>>>>> person, that of prayer." >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> 3 Types of Musical Instruments Appropriate for the Mass. The >>>>>>>>>>>> instrument >>>>>>>>>>>> that is most "directly" fitted for the Mass is the classical pipe >>>>>>>>>>>> organ. Other instruments, however, can be adapted to the Mass, >>>>>>>>>>>> including wind instruments, and smaller bowed instruments. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> 4 Types of Music Prohibited in the Mass. All secular and >>>>>>>>>>>> entertainment >>>>>>>>>>>> styles of music are utterly prohibited in the Mass. The >>>>>>>>>>>> introduction >>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> inappropriate music into the liturgy is regarded as "deplorable >>>>>>>>>>>> conduct." >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> 5 Types of Instruments Prohibited in the Mass. All "noisy or >>>>>>>>>>>> frivolous" >>>>>>>>>>>> instruments are prohibited for use in the Mass.The specific >>>>>>>>>>>> instruments >>>>>>>>>>>> named by the Popes have included guitars, pianos, drums, cymbals, >>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>> tambourines. "Bands" also are prohibited, as are all automated >>>>>>>>>>>> forms >>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> music (recordings, automatic instruments, etc). >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> 6 Adapting Musical Traditions of Indigenous Cultures, and >>>>>>>>>>>> "Universality." The musical traditions of particular cultures can >>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>> should be incorporated into the Sacred Liturgy, but only in such >>>>>>>>>>>> a way >>>>>>>>>>>> that they will be recognized as sacred ("good" in the words of >>>>>>>>>>>> Pope >>>>>>>>>>>> St. >>>>>>>>>>>> Pius X) by people of all cultures. That is, all such music must >>>>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>>>> the characteristic of "universality." >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> 7 Preserving the Church's Musical Tradition. The treasury of the >>>>>>>>>>>> Church's sacred music is to be carefully preserved, rather than >>>>>>>>>>>> discarded >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> aEUR|written in 2002 ..... [1]http://www.matthewhoffman.net/music/ >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I guess compiled by a traditionalist - I know people who go to >>>>>>>>>>>> churches >>>>>>>>>>>> in the UK and Latin America where these rules are vigorously >>>>>>>>>>>> flouted >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> And resumably the lute is a 'noisy' instrument associated with >>>>>>>>>>>> thedreadful frivolities of pianos and guitars >>>>>>>>>>>> Tony >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> References >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> 1. http://www.matthewhoffman.net/music/ >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> > > >
