Thanks David, That's very helpful and a systematic analysis.
The approach I've used for most of my lutes is to use the string spacing of an old 9c lute (label Matteus Vogt) as a starting point. It belonged to the Lute Society at one time. I took a rubbing of the strings (as did a few other UK makers) and measuring it just now, it pretty much fits the criteria you specify regarding the spacing at bridge and nut. In fact comparing it with the spacings I now have for many other old lutes, it's pretty much average. The point about hitting the two strings together is, of course, important. I had lessons from Diana Poulton (thumb out, close to bridge) and Michael Schaeffer (thumb inside, close to rose) who were both very particular about that issue and the tone production that resulted. Both said that the finger should be planted on the strings so you could feel them both, before plucking. There were, of course, at that time many very eminient lutenists still using nail, and one told me that he was happy to hit one of the strings and the other would vibrate in sympathy! Your other point about the second course lying under the knuckle of the first lh finger is one I haven't come across before - I'll check my lutes and see how they measure up against that one. As far as the nut is concerned, I agree that unless you have a spacing that works for you, some experimentation is needed. I wonder if you ever came across any of Jacob van der Geest's lutes? He made lots of very narrow (0.5mm?), shallow grooves side by side right across the nut and the player could place the strings to suit him/herself. I'm not sure how successful it was, but his instruments were certainly much revered at one time. Anyway - Plenty to think about there. Thanks again! Bill From: David Tayler <vidan...@sbcglobal.net> To: lute <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Thursday, 26 April 2012, 2:01 Subject: [LUTE] Re: What makes a good lute? Take a small, thin piece of wood 5mm, 5.2mm and so on Place it carefully between the paired strings, right at the bridge, careful not to scratch the soundboard or damage your strings (you can smooth the wood if you use gut. Increase the 2nd and 3rd course width until you can hit two strings clearly and cleanly. Then measure, then adjust. Start with 5.2mm If your nut spacing is too close, you can make a very, very thin mark with a file Then move one string out wider at the nut. You will quickly find the best ratio with no math needed :) Just don't make it too wide, or the total span will be too wide. If you have very small hands, you may have to go with "roughly parallel" where the spacing is narrow at the bridge and a bit wider at the nut. But I dodn't advise this as it does not always work. Gottlieb's lutes are sometimes set up perfect in "narrow, roughly parallel" And they are really nice lutes, very interesting sound. When I was 17, I guess this would be 1972, I just could not stand this buzz. So I took a chopstick, and made tiny spacers for the nut. I made a nut, then sawed it into slices. Each slice was a pair of strings, and I moved the pieces around till I figured it out. Buzz free since then. However, the thin lines is easier. You can make a practice nut if you do not want to mess up the one you have. Incidentally, course two MUST and I mean MUST lie under the knuckle, or you will never make a good bar chord sound. That's another story.... Basically, with the right stroke, and the right setup, the lute is easy to play, because it was an instrument that everyone played. However, if you have not learned to strike two strings dead on, you may have some difficulty. Most people do not have the right stroke because the spacing is wrong. Then someone like Ron McFarlane can show you, or a few other people, to hit two strings. 'That's where the pedagogical skill comes in. It takes ten minutes, plain and simple, to show someone. Maybe someone could do it in five. I made a lute video recently with a macro cam that shows the stroke I use, but you are free to find your own, and everyone's hand is different. There is no "right" way to play. But the buzzing, the splats, it is too much--I find it unacceptable. Sure you can edit them all out in a recording--and that is exactly what happens. But what is the point? Your choice, ten years or ten minutes! Personally, if I had a lute that was not set up right, I would sell it. Too much aggravation. But some people don't mind, and the vast majority of people think their lute is "just right", so that is really OK, as well. dt __________________________________________________________________ From: William Samson <[1]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk> To: David Tayler <[2]vidan...@sbcglobal.net> Cc: Lute List <[3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Wed, April 25, 2012 11:32:00 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: What makes a good lute? I haven't come across that formula David. Can you please point me to a source for the recipe? It could save a lot of time and money! Thanks, Bill From: David Tayler <[1][4]vidan...@sbcglobal.net> To: William Samson <[2][5]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk> Sent: Wednesday, 25 April 2012, 18:57 Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: What makes a good lute? Simple geometry. It's all been worked out, unlike forty years ago when we worked it out. No different from buying clothes. dt At 11:55 PM 4/9/2012, you wrote: A luthier would need a formula relating hand dimensions (hand span, fistmele and so on) in order to build a lute that's exactly the right size for a particular player. Without such a formula, all the luthier gets is a headache when asked to build a lute that's the right size for a particular player. If it's down to the player to decide what spacings they need, how will they determine that without having a selection of instruments to try first? Not as easy as in the time of Laux Maler as David Van Edwards so amusingly pointed out! I don't see how making exact copies of original instruments actually helps here - There are variations in these too - Compare, for example the well-known 7c Hieber with the 7c Venere of about the same size (58/59cm?). The Hieber has a wide string spacing at the nut end, and the Venere is almost impossibly narrow here for most players I know. Otherwise, there's not a lot of difference in dimensions - bridge spacing, scale, body dimensions . . . I sympathise with your point of view, but can't see how these objectives can be achieved in practice without buying, trying and then rejecting a goodish number of instruments. Bill From: David Tayler <[3][6]vidan...@sbcglobal.net> To: lute <[4][7]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Monday, 9 April 2012, 22:27 Subject: [LUTE] Re: What makes a good lute? Ninety percent of the lutes I see are set up wrong and are also the wrong size for the person playing. I doubt that this will change anytime soon: once someone buys the wrong size instrument, they either keep it or trade it in for another one that is the wrong size. So I would rate size and setup as the number one issue, based on my experience that the player will have to go through a very long retraining period after learning on a lute that is the wrong size. Why pedal backwards? Of the setup issues, the number one issue is the span and spacing. Without the right span and spacing, which reconciles two numbers, the size of the hand (and fingers) and the rules which govern the span and spacing of strings. Without these two numbers in balance, it is impossible, or very difficult to make a good sound. When these numbers are in balance, it is easy to make a good sound; in fact, it is difficult to make a bad sound. No one would wear size 4 or size 11 shoes if they are a size 9, and yet, that is precisely what happens. Sadly, people are rarely fitted to the lute, even though the lute is from the age of "custom made". Equally sadly, most people do not understand the basic physics of twang, thwack and pluck, which involves some simple experiments with a special bridge and nut that are universally adjustable. Generally speaking, and I mean VERY generally, the plucking-point spacing is wrong, that is, the place where you actually pluck the string, and it is almost always too narrow. However, it is the ratio of the bridge to nut, factoring the string length, and figured at YOUR plucking point that gives numbers for the "thou shalt not buzz" dimensions. Empirically, anyone can see that the spacing is different at any point on the string. A player with years of experience can give you some advice, after watching you play, about the setup. You may have to compromise somewhat on the overall span, or use a sliding scale so that the treble has more room. After these two biggies, there is a seemingly endless list of features, all of which are important. And here you will need some experience to guide you. However, I would add that most lutes made nowadays are not copies of originals. They are rescaled, resized, rebarred, rebridged, reglued, revarnished. Available is everything: everything-except-original. Now, you may want that. Personally, I think everyone needs a reality check instrument that is a copy of an original. Otherwise, it is just a guitar, basically, with wonky pegs. Since you asked about sound in your list, it is no fun playing a monochromatic instrument of any kind, but that is just a personal preference. I would say most lutes made today lean towards monochromatic. Main thing is to make a good sound. If you aren't making a beautiful sound, it isn't you: your lute is set up wrong, is the wrong size, or both. Lute players may think that their feet are the wrong size, but when you think about it, this cannot be the case. Everyone is different, and the instrument must fit. My teacher told me that you don't choose a lute, it chooses you. Maybe that is true. dt __________________________________________________________________ From: William Samson <[1][5][8]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk > To: Lute List <[2][6][9]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Sent: Sat, April 7, 2012 6:25:47 AM Subject: [LUTE] What makes a good lute? I haven't really got much to add to the subject line. I've been chatting with Rob about this and various points have emerged I'd be interested in hearing what priorities you might put on the various characteristics of a lute in deciding if it's 'good' or otherwise. The kinds of things that have come up are (in no particular order): * playability (action, string spacing etc) * sound (which I can't easily define) * authenticity of design/construction * materials used * quality of craftsmanship * reputation of maker Of course these are rather broad headings and might easily be refined, clarified or broken down. Thoughts, please? 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