Back sometime in the early 1980's my wife (the soprano who must be obeyed!) learned very, very trés authentique Medieval French pronunciation from a specialist in the field at the University of Pennsylvania. At her next performance Francophone snobs later "corrected" her hopelessly amateurish "American" French.
Who ya gonna please? As to English, I heard an eye (ear?) opening exposition of the pronunciation business on the radio some months ago. Not merely the pronunciation itself, but the speaker had a delivery of the words that made it a pleasure to hear. A relaxed tempo (unlike forced, fast deliveries of mispronounced modern "stage" theatre English attempting to do the same thing) -light, smooth, supple and rhythmic- I immediately thought of how it would just lift the performance of the English lute songs- some of which stubbornly stay clumpy otherwise. As to the lute parts, (OT from topic back to lute- ok?) lightening up the last part of "Clear of Cloudy" (one of my faves) has been an occasional lifetime project. Some of those low-range 3rds seem inherently clunky, but with discreet 8ve transposing I'm working it out without too much damage.... Dan On Jun 16, 2012, at 2:42 PM, Martin Shepherd wrote: > Thanks, David. I had not managed to recall E J Dobson, but you have, so > thanks for that too. Incidentally, I think it was also he who demystified > for us (through LPM publications) the pronunciation of 16th C French, an > especially important task as in that case the spellings tend to obscure the > pronunciation rather than otherwise. > > I would note as an aside that "modern" (20th C) English is a bugger of a > language to sing, as has been noted many times. As a native speaker, it has > so many problems of trying not to sound "posh" - and these problems surely > get worse when non-native speakers try to sing English songs. Frenchman > singing Warlock or Finzi, anyone? > > All the best, > > Martin > > On 16/06/2012 19:17, David Hill wrote: >> Dear Martin, >> Your examples of the Scottish song and French song illustrate well the >> dilemma for the performer! >> I cannot imagine performing a Gershwin or Cole Porter song without >> employing an American accent. It's part of the aEUR~reception history' >> and performance practice >> of these early 20th century songs, especially since it qualifies as >> aEUR~Early Music' as far as Musical Theatre is concerned. >> The accent is called for by the music itself aEUR" it's practically >> written in. >> aEUR~Anything Goes' is a prime example aEUR" it's built from clever, >> witty Americanisms that would simply sound wrong if sung in a kind of >> aEUR~Julie Andrews', RP, clipped English. >> >> The version of OP Early Modern English as practiced by David and Ben >> Crystal is what I would call 'half strength', and has, I think, >> deliberately been toned-down >> from the kind of extreme 'full strength' OP that the Camerata of London >> experimented with in the 80s. >> >> They (Glenda Simpson and Paul Hillier) had sought out and been coached >> by E J Dobson, whose ground-breaking >> and exhaustive (it even covers early modern regional dialects) English >> Pronunciation 1500-1700 is the foundation for all we know (or think we >> know) about >> how the Elizabethans spoke. Their 1980 disc (Hyperion CDA 66003) is now >> long deleted. It was so extreme that there were few up-takers for this >> interesting area, probably because it simply had to be marketed as a >> aEUR~novelty', rather than a serious experiment. >> >> aEUR~Floor moaEUR"ay tares' for example, is the aEUR~full strength' >> version, as sung by Paul Hillier, but nowadays the Crystals would >> probably simplify the almost bi-syllabic aEUR~mo-ay' into >> aEUR~may', nowadays, and might even pronounce tears the modern way. If >> you want to hear an example of aEUR~half strength' OP used to good >> effect in lute song, the excellent 2007 Charles Daniels/Nigel North >> recital on ATMA >> ( >> [1]http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dclassica >> l&field-keywords=Charles+Daniels%2FNigel+North&x&y ) >> is a very convincing argument indeed for it's application. If only all >> lute songs were sung as intelligently as Daniels does here, the >> argument would be overwhelming, because this is one of the finest lute >> song discs ever. >> >> In the full-strength E J Dobson pronunciation, nearly every syllable >> seems to have been changed, rather like the extreme Middle English as >> applied by Neville Coghill on his Argo recordings >> of Chaucer in the 60s, whereas with the Crystal's version, OP sounds >> very much more acceptable to our modern ears. >> I would not wish to accuse the Crystals of aEUR~dumbing down' OP for >> modern comprehension, but it certainly is much easier to employ and >> understand than the Dobson. >> In fact, I feel that the Crystal's version actually encourages the >> listener to listen more attentively. >> Their version sounds completely natural, whereas the Dobson >> fundamentalist take comes across as very aEUR~affected'. >> >> (It was the absurdity of my attempting to employ OP as a countertenor >> (for which I repent me, and still flagellate) that finally made me >> realise I was, >> for my entire singing lifetime, completely in error as to how to >> perform lute songs. Too many layers of interpretation). >> >> Ben Crystal's CD: 'Shakespeare's Original Pronunciation' ( >> [2]http://www.amazon.co.uk/Shakespeares-Original-Pronunciation-Performed-Shak >> espeare/dp/0712351191/ref=wl_mb_hu_m_1_dp )is well worth investigating, and >> will >> >> tell would-be singers almost all they need to know, as does his Dad's >> excellent aEUR~Pronouncing Shakespeare: The Globe Experiment', which >> distils the essential bits you need to know at the end of the book. >> >> But do listen to Charles Daniels for a treat. Probably up on YouTube by >> now. >> >> David Hill >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Martin Shepherd >> Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 9:44 PM >> To: Lute List >> Subject: [LUTE] Re: HIP Shakespeare >> >> Yes, the Hilliard Ensemble did quite a bit of this, and for the most >> part I think it was very successful. Some rhymes work (things like >> "move" and "love"), and some of our awkwardness with musical setting of >> words (three syllables for endings like "tion" or "cion", for instance) >> disappears. There is also the colour - words like "darkness" seem to >> gain in effect by having a "hard" A and a post-vocalic R and become >> more >> expressive. >> >> For the singer of lute songs, this creates a dilemma. To sing in an >> accent which is not your own is (though beloved of 20th/21st C British >> pop musicians) rather strange, and perhaps not conducive to being taken >> seriously. The problem arises in singing repertoire which is not your >> own - an Englishman singing a Scottish song cannot use his own >> pronunciation, because some of the words simply don't exist in his >> "native" language, but if he attempts a Scottish pronunciation, is he >> not (a) at risk of getting it wrong and (b) being open to accusations >> of >> not being "serious"? The flip side of that coin is that if, as an >> Englishman, you sing a French song, surely your goal would be to >> pronounce the French words as "accurately" as possible, so that a >> listener would not know the native language of the singer? Having said >> that, what is the "correct" accent for a French song? The same applies >> to German lieder, of course (delicately opens large can of worms....). >> >> In the end, perhaps it's all a matter of comprehensibility, and even >> more important, the rapport established between the singer and the >> audience. The late Robert Spencer, who coached lute song brilliantly, >> was firmly on the side of "selling" the song and communicating its >> message, and was therefore somewhat distrustful of OP, both because it >> might lessen comprehension and also because it might distract the >> audience (e.g. they're so busy noticing the "funny" pronunciation of a >> word they miss the overall meaning of the phrase). I have a lot of >> sympathy with this view, but also a lot of sympathy with the benefits >> of >> OP in terms of making rhymes and puns work properly. Perhaps we could >> come to accept that "old" songs are sung in a different accent from >> modern ones, in the same way that we accept that a singer who is not >> Scottish might adopt the necessary accent for singing a particular >> song. >> >> No easy answers, I'm afraid. >> >> Martin >> >> On 15/06/2012 16:50, William Samson wrote: >> > The Hilliard Ensemble made an album in the late 70s, I think, of >> > various songs, including lute songs with original pronounciation >> - >> > probably at the more extreme end of possibilities. >> > To my ear, Dowland's "Now oh now I needs must part" sounded like >> "Nay >> > oh nay oi needs moost pairt" - a bit disconcerting but very >> > interesting. >> > Bill >> > >> __________________________________________________________________ >> > >> > From: Guy Smith<guy_m_sm...@comcast.net> >> > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >> > Sent: Friday, 15 June 2012, 16:19 >> > Subject: [LUTE] HIP Shakespeare >> > Interesting video on how Shakespeare might have been pronounced >> circa >> > 1600. It would be interesting to see a similar approach to >> English >> > lute >> > songs. >> > [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPlpphT7n9s >> > Guy >> > -- >> > To get on or off this list see list information at >> > [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> > >> > -- >> > >> > References >> > >> > 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPlpphT7n9s >> > 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html >> > >> >> -- >> >> References >> >> 1. >> http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dclassical&field-keywords=Charles+Daniels%2FNigel+North&x&y >> 2. >> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Shakespeares-Original-Pronunciation-Performed-Shakespeare/dp/0712351191/ref=wl_mb_hu_m_1_dp >> > >
