Dear Anthony,
As I said before, Martyn or Howard may be right, but if one reads the whole
context it seems rather unlikely. Mace uses the word „decay” in places where
he definitely means decomposition. The quote about an old oak in my previous
message maybe a good example. You can’t expect that he meant „poor quality
oak”. He talks about a rotting, decomposing old tree. And he had a good
sense of observation. For example he mentions that gut strings swell when
there is a moisture in the air. The fact that he goes on saying that small
Lyons are constantly rotten „and good for little, but to make frets of”,
doesn’t contradict anything as probably a rotting string wouldn’t be rotten
on the whole length, but in a couple of limited places, so using the
remaining sound part seems to be a very good idea.
I agree with you that small Lyons were probably HT.
Anthony, I will answer you later as I am very pressed for time these days. I
will have much more time before Christmas. Meanwhile you’ll probably write
more too, no?
All the best
Jaroslaw
----- Original Message -----
From: "Anthony Hind" <agno3ph...@yahoo.com>
To: "howard posner" <howardpos...@ca.rr.com>; "howard posner"
<howardpos...@ca.rr.com>; "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
Cc: <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 4:37 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Pistoys prone to rot (and string structure) according to
Mace?
Dear Jaroslaw
Unfortunately I don't have time just now to reply in any detail about all
these interesting questions you raise, but I will nevertheless do so, as
soon as I have enough time to do your analysis justice.
Just on this issue of the meaning of rottenness. I find that Martyn did
have a good point. Mace does say that Lyons tend to be rotten, but then
goes on to say that they are only fit to be used as frets. Of course this
could just be a figure of speech, but taken literally a decaying string
should not be fit for making frets. This leads Martyn to consider that
"rotten" here rather means a poor string. Although, assuming the other
meaning (putrified) I suppose it might still be possible to use the parts
of the string that were not rotten?
%
If small Lyons did tend to rot (while Pistoys didn't), I would agree with
Jaroslaw that this could perhaps imply that Lyons had not undergone quite
the same treatments (loading/curing) as Pistoys. However, Mace only says
this of small Lyons (presumably Meanes which would not have been loaded)
but not of Lyons Basses, which he just says are not particularly good.
%
Another point might be that, if we are to take Mace's remark literally,
and believe that Lyons Meanes might have worked as frets, then this could
possibly also tell us something else about the structure of Lyons. Might
this not imply that Lyons were HT rather than more elastic ropes. I am
frankly not sure about this, but would a soft flexible Venice twine rope
work well as a fret. Don't we need a certain hardness in a fret? Might
this not imply that Lyons (at least Lyons Meanes) were HT? But this
remains an open question, as I just don't have any experience with trying
out twine, or indeed tresses, as frets (perhaps they do work?), and Mace's
words might not have been intended literally.
%
Venice Octaves:
Now if, as suggested by Mace, Pistoys had the same structure as Venice
Catlines, then his remarks about using Venices Meanes for Octaves, could
also possibly tell us something about Pistoys.
%
An indication that Mace's Venice Catline Meanes were perhaps twine ropes,
comes from the fact that he advises players to use Venice Meanes both for
5c and 4c, but also for all octaves but only down to 7c (but not for 6c
Octave, for which he advises treble Minikins). This could imply that the
Venice Meanes structure would not allow them to be made thin enough for 6c
(on my lute 4c and 7c Octave are about the same size near 80, while 6c
Octave and 3c treble are around 60). I notice that MPs twines only go down
to 70 (not small enough for 6c Octave), while of course an HT can be made
much smaller. On the other hand tresses (Dan's Pistoys for example) only
seem to go down to about 100. This limit could perhaps be inherently
determined by the varying structure: single element HT, opposed to two
element twine, and three element tress (where perhaps the fewer the
elements the smaller the string can be made?).
If this corresponds to a general rule about twine, HT, and tress structure
(but perhaps it doesn't?), then Mace's Venices might have been twines (the
only ones to go down to 7c octave but no further?).
Now, if Mace was further correct in considering that Pistoys were thick
Venices then these might also have been twine.
However, in contrast, I notice that while Mace mentions that small Lyons
Meanes were also often used for octaves, he does not mention any similar
limit on their use (down to 7c). This could be an omission, as he doesn't
advise their use, but we find the same sort of comment in Burwell, where
the use of Small Lyons Meanes are also advised for octaves. However, here
again there is no limit indicated on their use (say down to 7c). There is
no mention at all of Venices in Burwell, so there is no possible contrast
indicated.
%
If the presence of this comment about a size constraint for Venice octaves
(in Mace) but no similar comment for Lyons octaves (in Mace or Burwell) is
at all significant, then this could be another indication of a structural
difference between Venices and Lyons; perhaps we have a small clue here
that Lyons Meanes (and perhaps also basses?) were HT, while Venices (and
possibly Pistoys?) were twine.
%
Well, I am drawing strong conclusions from a few passing remarks, and so I
quite understand if anyone considers this pure speculation.
Thank you Jaroslaw for raising all this, I will try to get back to you on
other points, as soon as possible?
Regards
Anthony
----- Mail original -----
De : howard posner <howardpos...@ca.rr.com>
À : lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Cc :
Envoyé le : Mardi 27 novembre 2012 21h51
Objet : [LUTE] Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace?
On Nov 27, 2012, at 10:35 AM, jaroslawlip...@wp.pl wrote:
The word "decay" reappears several times in the technical part of Music's
Monument, always in conjunction with the word "rottenness". This can't be
coincidental.
You may be right about Mace using "rottenness" in the modern sense of
"decomposition of organic material," but in the 1600's "decay" was not
that specific in meaning. It could mean any deterioration or decline.
A flood would decay when its waters ebbed.
Pepys wrote in 15 May 1663 that "the Dutch decay [in the East Indies]
exceedingly."
The King James Bible (1611) uses decay to indicate a person's financial or
civic decline: "If thy brother be waxen poor and fallen in decay with
thee…" (Leviticus 25:35).
In Ben Jonson's play Catline (I'm not kidding) Act II scene 2, a character
says "She has beene a fine Ladie, And, yet, she dresses herselfe, (except
you Madame) One of the best in Rome: and paints, and hides Her decayes
very well."
It appears that "decay" in Mace's time was less likely to convey the sense
of decomposing than "rot" itself was.
The obvious question is: if Mace had wanted to convey the sense of
decomposing, moldering, festering gut strings unequivocally, was there a
better word than "rotten"? The obvious answer is: I don't know.
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