Please look at Samuel Johnson's dictionary published in 1755. It is available online and lists several meanings of 'decay'. There doesn't seem to be a direct reference to decomposition during this time. While this isn't the best source for understanding Mace, Johnson uses earlier sources to back up his definition.
Shaun Ng On 29/11/2012, at 8:53, <jaroslawlip...@wp.pl> wrote: > Dear Anthony, > > As I said before, Martyn or Howard may be right, but if one reads the whole > context it seems rather unlikely. Mace uses the word „decay” in places where > he definitely means decomposition. The quote about an old oak in my previous > message maybe a good example. You can’t expect that he meant „poor quality > oak”. He talks about a rotting, decomposing old tree. And he had a good sense > of observation. For example he mentions that gut strings swell when there is > a moisture in the air. The fact that he goes on saying that small Lyons are > constantly rotten „and good for little, but to make frets of”, doesn’t > contradict anything as probably a rotting string wouldn’t be rotten on the > whole length, but in a couple of limited places, so using the remaining sound > part seems to be a very good idea. > > I agree with you that small Lyons were probably HT. > > Anthony, I will answer you later as I am very pressed for time these days. I > will have much more time before Christmas. Meanwhile you’ll probably write > more too, no? > > All the best > > Jaroslaw > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anthony Hind" <agno3ph...@yahoo.com> > To: "howard posner" <howardpos...@ca.rr.com>; "howard posner" > <howardpos...@ca.rr.com>; "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> > Cc: <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 4:37 PM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Pistoys prone to rot (and string structure) according to > Mace? > > >> Dear Jaroslaw >> Unfortunately I don't have time just now to reply in any detail about all >> these interesting questions you raise, but I will nevertheless do so, as >> soon as I have enough time to do your analysis justice. >> Just on this issue of the meaning of rottenness. I find that Martyn did have >> a good point. Mace does say that Lyons tend to be rotten, but then goes on >> to say that they are only fit to be used as frets. Of course this could just >> be a figure of speech, but taken literally a decaying string should not be >> fit for making frets. This leads Martyn to consider that "rotten" here >> rather means a poor string. Although, assuming the other meaning (putrified) >> I suppose it might still be possible to use the parts of the string that >> were not rotten? >> % >> If small Lyons did tend to rot (while Pistoys didn't), I would agree with >> Jaroslaw that this could perhaps imply that Lyons had not undergone quite >> the same treatments (loading/curing) as Pistoys. However, Mace only says >> this of small Lyons (presumably Meanes which would not have been loaded) but >> not of Lyons Basses, which he just says are not particularly good. >> % >> Another point might be that, if we are to take Mace's remark literally, and >> believe that Lyons Meanes might have worked as frets, then this could >> possibly also tell us something else about the structure of Lyons. Might >> this not imply that Lyons were HT rather than more elastic ropes. I am >> frankly not sure about this, but would a soft flexible Venice twine rope >> work well as a fret. Don't we need a certain hardness in a fret? Might this >> not imply that Lyons (at least Lyons Meanes) were HT? But this remains an >> open question, as I just don't have any experience with trying out twine, or >> indeed tresses, as frets (perhaps they do work?), and Mace's words might not >> have been intended literally. >> % >> Venice Octaves: >> Now if, as suggested by Mace, Pistoys had the same structure as Venice >> Catlines, then his remarks about using Venices Meanes for Octaves, could >> also possibly tell us something about Pistoys. >> % >> An indication that Mace's Venice Catline Meanes were perhaps twine ropes, >> comes from the fact that he advises players to use Venice Meanes both for 5c >> and 4c, but also for all octaves but only down to 7c (but not for 6c Octave, >> for which he advises treble Minikins). This could imply that the Venice >> Meanes structure would not allow them to be made thin enough for 6c (on my >> lute 4c and 7c Octave are about the same size near 80, while 6c Octave and >> 3c treble are around 60). I notice that MPs twines only go down to 70 (not >> small enough for 6c Octave), while of course an HT can be made much smaller. >> On the other hand tresses (Dan's Pistoys for example) only seem to go down >> to about 100. This limit could perhaps be inherently determined by the >> varying structure: single element HT, opposed to two element twine, and >> three element tress (where perhaps the fewer the elements the smaller the >> string can be made?). >> If this corresponds to a general rule about twine, HT, and tress structure >> (but perhaps it doesn't?), then Mace's Venices might have been twines (the >> only ones to go down to 7c octave but no further?). >> Now, if Mace was further correct in considering that Pistoys were thick >> Venices then these might also have been twine. >> However, in contrast, I notice that while Mace mentions that small Lyons >> Meanes were also often used for octaves, he does not mention any similar >> limit on their use (down to 7c). This could be an omission, as he doesn't >> advise their use, but we find the same sort of comment in Burwell, where the >> use of Small Lyons Meanes are also advised for octaves. However, here again >> there is no limit indicated on their use (say down to 7c). There is no >> mention at all of Venices in Burwell, so there is no possible contrast >> indicated. >> % >> If the presence of this comment about a size constraint for Venice octaves >> (in Mace) but no similar comment for Lyons octaves (in Mace or Burwell) is >> at all significant, then this could be another indication of a structural >> difference between Venices and Lyons; perhaps we have a small clue here that >> Lyons Meanes (and perhaps also basses?) were HT, while Venices (and possibly >> Pistoys?) were twine. >> % >> Well, I am drawing strong conclusions from a few passing remarks, and so I >> quite understand if anyone considers this pure speculation. >> Thank you Jaroslaw for raising all this, I will try to get back to you on >> other points, as soon as possible? >> Regards >> Anthony >> >> ----- Mail original ----- >> De : howard posner <howardpos...@ca.rr.com> >> À : lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >> Cc : >> Envoyé le : Mardi 27 novembre 2012 21h51 >> Objet : [LUTE] Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace? >> >> >> On Nov 27, 2012, at 10:35 AM, jaroslawlip...@wp.pl wrote: >> >>> The word "decay" reappears several times in the technical part of Music's >>> Monument, always in conjunction with the word "rottenness". This can't be >>> coincidental. >> >> You may be right about Mace using "rottenness" in the modern sense of >> "decomposition of organic material," but in the 1600's "decay" was not that >> specific in meaning. It could mean any deterioration or decline. >> A flood would decay when its waters ebbed. >> Pepys wrote in 15 May 1663 that "the Dutch decay [in the East Indies] >> exceedingly." >> The King James Bible (1611) uses decay to indicate a person's financial or >> civic decline: "If thy brother be waxen poor and fallen in decay with thee…" >> (Leviticus 25:35). >> In Ben Jonson's play Catline (I'm not kidding) Act II scene 2, a character >> says "She has beene a fine Ladie, And, yet, she dresses herselfe, (except >> you Madame) One of the best in Rome: and paints, and hides Her decayes very >> well." >> >> It appears that "decay" in Mace's time was less likely to convey the sense >> of decomposing than "rot" itself was. >> >> The obvious question is: if Mace had wanted to convey the sense of >> decomposing, moldering, festering gut strings unequivocally, was there a >> better word than "rotten"? The obvious answer is: I don't know. >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >
