Joe,
No need to be offended. You raise some good points. Because of my
activities as a classical guitarist and lutenist, I must occasionally contend
with nails and lack of nails on each instrument. The biggest hurdle has been
baroque lute. Until relatively recently, I could not any kind of acceptable
sound out of it when I had nails, but after much effort, I think I've finally
cracked how to do it.
It is NOT true that playing with nails results in the individual strings of a
course being played one after another. This only happens if one assumes that
"playing with nails" simply means transferring modern classical guitar
technique to the lute in toto. I can get a full sound with nails, but I don't
play the lute like a classical guitar when the nails are present and I can't
play it the same way as I do without nails. Unfortunately, I have found few
models regarding what sort of technique is needed to play the lute with nails.
It's been completely a method of trial and error. That's a scary path to trend
when you've got a concert coming up! (For what it's worth, there are also no
real modern models regarding how to play baroque lute with a historically
accurate right hand position in general.)
Joe, I think you have some valid points which are well worth considering
seriously.
Chris
Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A.
Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer
www.christopherwilke.com
--------------------------------------------
On Thu, 12/12/13, Mayes, Joseph <ma...@rowan.edu> wrote:
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
To: "Bruno Correia" <bruno.l...@gmail.com>, "List LUTELIST"
<lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Thursday, December 12, 2013, 8:01 AM
OK good people, this will be my final
post on this subject. I grow weary of
the gratuitous condescension and infuriating belittlement -
"take the
trouble to learn how to do it," indeed.
On 12/11/13 9:26 PM, "Bruno Correia" <bruno.l...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> 2013/12/11 Mayes, Joseph <[1]ma...@rowan.edu>
> Well, browse the recordings since mid
seventies.
>
> Well, I was sort of fearing some
push-back from the "tap-dancing
> barefoot" crowd. I don't know how
you can speak for most of the
> lutenists out there. I certainly
only meant to speak for me.
>
>
> No it doesn't. Lamentable only for those
who didn't have the trouble to
> learn how to do it. Ask Hoppy, O'Dette,
North, Herringman, Lislevand,
> Ferre, Barto (the list is too big...) and
many others how to do it.
> It's not that difficult and the result is
pure joy.
Right back to - if Paul does it, it must be right. I wish
you joy of your
"pure joy."
>
> Sweetness requires nails. The sound
- sort of a "thub, thub" one
> achieves without them is so
unsatisfying as to be lamentable.
>
> Fungus? That's pure speculation. About
Sor, check his method, no
> research needed it's there.
Yes Sor advised against nails - the word I objected to was
"hated" I don't
see that in the method.
>
> Tarrega played with nails until he
lost them due to fungus - He
> convinced his late-in-life student
Pujol that flesh was the way to
> go. Sor hated nails? I'd like to
see that research.
>
>
> Rubish, Dolmetsch didn't study enough lute
praxis and Bream wasn't a
> lutenist in the first place (actually he
never assumed he was - this is
> documented in an interview). The stars do
not agree entirely with
> themselves, but the important points
remain the same.
I guess you're more acquainted with "rubish" than am I. For
someone who
wasn't a lutenist, Bream recorded and performed quite a
lot.
>
> As for "asking Hoppy," I think that
illustrates part of the problem
> with the HIP folks. Because the
stars do it one way - that's the
> right way. Bear in mind that
Dolmetch and Bream, et al thought they
> had it right, too.
>
> I thought this list was supposedly a place
to discuss lute performance
> practice and not each ones taste. Some
people may prefer to play with
> nails on carbon single strings and with
amplification. What does it
> have to do with HIP?
Lute performance practice has everything to do with each
one's taste. I
assume that historical performance varied as greatly as
contemporary
performance - dictated by "each one's taste." But really, I
am as HIP as the
next fellow - I sound just like the paintings.
>
> But, as I say, I'm not trying to
convince anyone of anything. Play
> any way you want to, just leave the
dogma on the porch.
> Joseph Mayes
>
________________________________________
> From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
[[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu]
On
> Behalf Of Bruno Correia [[4]bruno.l...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2013
8:29 PM
> To: List LUTELIST
>
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I
just noticed
>
> It may sound good to
you, but not for most of the lutenists out
> there.
> Ask Hoppy about this
issue? Ok, you don't need to ask him, after all
> you don't ride a horse
to the gig... Hey, I'd like to do that, the
> traffic has been so bad
nowadays.
> The most frequent word
to describe the lute's sound is sweetness!
> How
> can you have achieve it
with nails? Double strings also require that
> both strings be pressed
at once and not one after the other. The
> lute
> is after all a sweet
instrument (specially with gut). Even in
> classical
> guitar tutors (19th-20th
century) the issue of nails was still
> rolling
> on. Sor hated it and
only tolerated Aguado because of his great
> skill.
> That's why Tarrega and
Pujol also avoided it (even if it was a
> requirement due to the
high tension of the Torres guitar).
> Going back: The sources
were just saying that many people were
> careless
> about their sound
production. In order to avoid it, what about
> cutting
> your nails once and a
while, washing your hands (daily if you can)?
> 2013/12/10 Mayes, Joseph
<[1][5]ma...@rowan.edu>
>
> I play the lute,
archlute and vihuela with nails for the same
> reason
> that I
> play the
classical guitar with nails: because it sounds better!
> Of course, by
that I mean it sounds better to me. Nails give the
> attack a
> precision that
flesh does not. It also comes closer, IMHO to the
> sound
> usually described
in historical sources as desirable on lute -
> silvery,
> tinkling, etc.
> Many sources tell
us not to use nails - which they wouldn't have
> bothered to
> do if people were
not doing it that way.
> I don't play with
flesh, I don't ride my horse to the gig, and I
> don't
> attend any
bear-bating.
> My $.02
> Joseph mayes
>
> --
> References
> 1. mailto:[6]ma...@rowan.edu
>
> To get on or off this list see list
information at
>
> [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
> --
> Bruno Figueiredo
>
> Pesquisador autonomo da pratica e
interpretac,ao
> historicamente informada no alaude e
teorba.
> Doutor em Praticas Interpretativas pela
> Universidade Federal do Estado do Rio de
Janeiro.
>
> --
>
> References
>
> 1. mailto:ma...@rowan.edu
> 2. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
> 3. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
> 4. mailto:bruno.l...@gmail.com
> 5. mailto:ma...@rowan.edu
> 6. mailto:ma...@rowan.edu
> 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
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