Joe, No need to be offended. You raise some good points. Because of my activities as a classical guitarist and lutenist, I must occasionally contend with nails and lack of nails on each instrument. The biggest hurdle has been baroque lute. Until relatively recently, I could not any kind of acceptable sound out of it when I had nails, but after much effort, I think I've finally cracked how to do it.
It is NOT true that playing with nails results in the individual strings of a course being played one after another. This only happens if one assumes that "playing with nails" simply means transferring modern classical guitar technique to the lute in toto. I can get a full sound with nails, but I don't play the lute like a classical guitar when the nails are present and I can't play it the same way as I do without nails. Unfortunately, I have found few models regarding what sort of technique is needed to play the lute with nails. It's been completely a method of trial and error. That's a scary path to trend when you've got a concert coming up! (For what it's worth, there are also no real modern models regarding how to play baroque lute with a historically accurate right hand position in general.) Joe, I think you have some valid points which are well worth considering seriously. Chris Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com -------------------------------------------- On Thu, 12/12/13, Mayes, Joseph <ma...@rowan.edu> wrote: Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed To: "Bruno Correia" <bruno.l...@gmail.com>, "List LUTELIST" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Date: Thursday, December 12, 2013, 8:01 AM OK good people, this will be my final post on this subject. I grow weary of the gratuitous condescension and infuriating belittlement - "take the trouble to learn how to do it," indeed. On 12/11/13 9:26 PM, "Bruno Correia" <bruno.l...@gmail.com> wrote: > 2013/12/11 Mayes, Joseph <[1]ma...@rowan.edu> > Well, browse the recordings since mid seventies. > > Well, I was sort of fearing some push-back from the "tap-dancing > barefoot" crowd. I don't know how you can speak for most of the > lutenists out there. I certainly only meant to speak for me. > > > No it doesn't. Lamentable only for those who didn't have the trouble to > learn how to do it. Ask Hoppy, O'Dette, North, Herringman, Lislevand, > Ferre, Barto (the list is too big...) and many others how to do it. > It's not that difficult and the result is pure joy. Right back to - if Paul does it, it must be right. I wish you joy of your "pure joy." > > Sweetness requires nails. The sound - sort of a "thub, thub" one > achieves without them is so unsatisfying as to be lamentable. > > Fungus? That's pure speculation. About Sor, check his method, no > research needed it's there. Yes Sor advised against nails - the word I objected to was "hated" I don't see that in the method. > > Tarrega played with nails until he lost them due to fungus - He > convinced his late-in-life student Pujol that flesh was the way to > go. Sor hated nails? I'd like to see that research. > > > Rubish, Dolmetsch didn't study enough lute praxis and Bream wasn't a > lutenist in the first place (actually he never assumed he was - this is > documented in an interview). The stars do not agree entirely with > themselves, but the important points remain the same. I guess you're more acquainted with "rubish" than am I. For someone who wasn't a lutenist, Bream recorded and performed quite a lot. > > As for "asking Hoppy," I think that illustrates part of the problem > with the HIP folks. Because the stars do it one way - that's the > right way. Bear in mind that Dolmetch and Bream, et al thought they > had it right, too. > > I thought this list was supposedly a place to discuss lute performance > practice and not each ones taste. Some people may prefer to play with > nails on carbon single strings and with amplification. What does it > have to do with HIP? Lute performance practice has everything to do with each one's taste. I assume that historical performance varied as greatly as contemporary performance - dictated by "each one's taste." But really, I am as HIP as the next fellow - I sound just like the paintings. > > But, as I say, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. Play > any way you want to, just leave the dogma on the porch. > Joseph Mayes > ________________________________________ > From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On > Behalf Of Bruno Correia [[4]bruno.l...@gmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2013 8:29 PM > To: List LUTELIST > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed > > It may sound good to you, but not for most of the lutenists out > there. > Ask Hoppy about this issue? Ok, you don't need to ask him, after all > you don't ride a horse to the gig... Hey, I'd like to do that, the > traffic has been so bad nowadays. > The most frequent word to describe the lute's sound is sweetness! > How > can you have achieve it with nails? Double strings also require that > both strings be pressed at once and not one after the other. The > lute > is after all a sweet instrument (specially with gut). Even in > classical > guitar tutors (19th-20th century) the issue of nails was still > rolling > on. Sor hated it and only tolerated Aguado because of his great > skill. > That's why Tarrega and Pujol also avoided it (even if it was a > requirement due to the high tension of the Torres guitar). > Going back: The sources were just saying that many people were > careless > about their sound production. In order to avoid it, what about > cutting > your nails once and a while, washing your hands (daily if you can)? > 2013/12/10 Mayes, Joseph <[1][5]ma...@rowan.edu> > > I play the lute, archlute and vihuela with nails for the same > reason > that I > play the classical guitar with nails: because it sounds better! > Of course, by that I mean it sounds better to me. Nails give the > attack a > precision that flesh does not. It also comes closer, IMHO to the > sound > usually described in historical sources as desirable on lute - > silvery, > tinkling, etc. > Many sources tell us not to use nails - which they wouldn't have > bothered to > do if people were not doing it that way. > I don't play with flesh, I don't ride my horse to the gig, and I > don't > attend any bear-bating. > My $.02 > Joseph mayes > > -- > References > 1. mailto:[6]ma...@rowan.edu > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > Bruno Figueiredo > > Pesquisador autonomo da pratica e interpretac,ao > historicamente informada no alaude e teorba. > Doutor em Praticas Interpretativas pela > Universidade Federal do Estado do Rio de Janeiro. > > -- > > References > > 1. mailto:ma...@rowan.edu > 2. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu > 3. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu > 4. mailto:bruno.l...@gmail.com > 5. mailto:ma...@rowan.edu > 6. mailto:ma...@rowan.edu > 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html