-----Original Message-----
From: Monica Hall [mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk]
Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2015 2:46 PM
To: Mathias Rösel
Cc: Lutelist
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
The purely fictional - non-historical one.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mathias Rösel" <mathias.roe...@t-online.de>
Cc: "'Lutelist'" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2015 12:04 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
> Read Hillary Mantel on that topic, you'll get another view.
>
> Mathias
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
>> Behalf Of
>> Chris Barker
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 6:11 PM
>> To: 'Monica Hall'; 'Edward Chrysogonus Yong'
>> Cc: 'Lutelist'
>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
>>
>> I agree on Thomas Cromwell as well! Had Henry VIII not been king at
>> that
>> time I'd
>> call him a thug too!
>>
>> Chris
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
>> Behalf Of
>> Monica Hall
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 9:19 AM
>> To: Edward Chrysogonus Yong
>> Cc: Lutelist
>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
>>
>> Yes - Simon Schama has likened Cromwell and his supporters to the
>> Taliban
>> in
>> Afghanistan.
>> They were certainly responsible for destroying some of our cultural
>> heritage.
>> And Thomas Cromwell a century earlier was just an avaricious thug.
>> Monica
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Edward Chrysogonus Yong" <edward.y...@gmail.com>
>> To: "Mark Wheeler" <l...@pantagruel.de>
>> Cc: "Monica Hall" <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>; "ml"
>> <man...@manololaguillo.com>;
>> "Lutelist" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 10:55 AM
>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
>>
>>
>> >
>> > England falling to 16th C Catholic Spain may have been better for
>> > music and culture than falling to Cromwell and the Puritans, just
>> > saying...
>> >
>> > ========
>> >
>> > τούτο ηλεκτρονικόν ταχυδρομείον εκ είΦωνου εμεύ επέμφθη.
>> > Hæ litteræ electronicæ ab iPhono missæ sunt.
>> > 此電子郵件發送于自吾iPhone。
>> > This e-mail was sent from my iPhone.
>> >
>> >> On 5 May 2015, at 4:40 pm, Mark Wheeler <l...@pantagruel.de> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Regarding Elizabeth I's racism here is an interesting article
>> >>
>> >> https://www.press.jhu.edu/timeline/sel/Bartels_2006.pdf
>> >>
>> >> What Monica says about not judging the past by an inappropriate set
>> >> of criteria is true and is also appropriate to the "racism" of the
>> >> English Queen.
>> >>
>> >> It may not be PC, but I personally am exceedingly happy that England
>> >> did not fall to 16th century Catholic Spain!
>> >>
>> >> All the best
>> >> Mark
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> On May 5, 2015, at 9:41 AM, Monica Hall wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Yes - you are right. We shouldn't judge the past by an
>> >>> inappropriate set of criteria.
>> >>> Spain has got a bad press in the English speaking world because
>> >>> most
>> >>> of us study history from an English/Northern Europe point of view.
>> >>> Queen Elizabeth I was a racist - want to expel all coloured people
>> >>> from England. So was Shakespeare. Jews are always villains.
>> >>>
>> >>> Monica briefly
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "ml" <man...@manololaguillo.com>
>> >>> To: "LUTELIST List" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>> >>> Sent: Monday, May 04, 2015 8:53 PM
>> >>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>> Spain was not an exception regarding free vs. conservative
>> >>>> thinking. I mean, Spain was not more conservative than England or
>> >>>> France, in regard to what is right or wrong in religion, morality
>> >>>> (for instance
>> >>>> sexuality.) and so on. Fear was (and is) the explication of nearly
>> >>>> everything.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Perhaps Jean Delumeau (La peur en Occident, Fayard, 1978) hits the
>> >>>> nail when he says, concluding his wonderful book, that Satan was
>> >>>> seen everywhere. He is the enemy, he inspires the turks, the
>> >>>> witches, the heresies, the plagues, etc. When the attention is
>> >>>> focused on jews and 'moriscos' (that is what happens in Spain),
>> >>>> the
>> >>>> witches are not so closely monitorized. In other european
>> >>>> countries, not so much worried with jews, heresies (here the
>> >>>> protestants, there the catholics) were prosecuted instead. Only
>> >>>> two
>> >>>> countries, Delumeau continues, "escaped from this general fear:
>> >>>> Poland and Italy. The latter perhaps because of being more pagan
>> >>>> than his neighbors (that was Erasmus' opinion), or because the
>> >>>> church was controlling it better than elsewhere. In any case, it
>> >>>> seems that Italy lost his mind because of these fears in a lesser
>> >>>> degree than
>> other countries."
>> >>>>
>> >>>> But. if we read Carlo Ginzburg's Il formaggio e i fermi. Il cosmo
>> >>>> di un mugnaio del '500 (1976), a seminal work in micro-history,
>> >>>> Italy suffered under the inquisition as well.
>> >>>> Galileo's case is of course very well known.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> It's all too easy to project from our present time to that past.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Regards from Barcelona, dear lute friends. :-)
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Manolo
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> El 04/05/2015, a las 19:27, Sean Smith <lutesm...@mac.com>
>> >>>>> escribió:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> That's what I'm thinking, too. The very first piece in Dalza's
>> >>>>> book is the Caldibi Castigliano and it certainly points to a
>> >>>>> refined and complex idiom unlike anything else in his Ferrerese
>> >>>>> or
>> >>>>> Venetiana dance cycles.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Sean
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> On May 4, 2015, at 9:52 AM, Gary Boye wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> A word of caution here:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> We are making judgements based primarily on the printed evidence
>> >>>>> (i.e., the 7 main vihuela tablatures); there was a great deal of
>> >>>>> music (most of it!) that took place in Spain outside of these
>> >>>>> formal, published works.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Publishing was a big deal in the 16th century. Getting an
>> >>>>> imprimatur from a conservative and literally Inquisitorial
>> >>>>> government was unlikely with a large collection of dance music;
>> >>>>> much easier to play it conservative and stick to sacred
>> >>>>> intabulations. The vihuela manuscripts hint at a wider
>> >>>>> repertoire,
>> >>>>> as does the existence of guitar music from a later period. Who
>> >>>>> knows what was happening on the streets, but the Inquisition
>> >>>>> wouldn't have had much to do if everyone in Spain was a
>> >>>>> straight-laced as
>> the vihuela tablatures make it seem .
>> >>>>> . .
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Gary
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Dr. Gary R. Boye
>> >>>>> Professor and Music Librarian
>> >>>>> Appalachian State University
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> On 5/4/2015 12:37 PM, Dan Winheld wrote:
>> >>>>>> In other words, because the only two ethnic/cultural groups that
>> >>>>>> had any rhythm were invited to leave the premises at once. It
>> >>>>>> was
>> >>>>>> said that when all the Jewish & Moorish doctors, scholars,
>> >>>>>> scientists, and artists & academics showed up on his doorstep,
>> >>>>>> the Sultan of Turkey asked "Has the King of Spain lost his
>> >>>>>> mind?"
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Lacking some rhythm myself, I do enjoy the all the great vihuela
>> >>>>>> music a lot- but even I have to sometimes "move" over to Italy &
>> >>>>>> Germany for a little jumping around.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Dan
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> On 5/4/2015 3:36 AM, Ron Andrico wrote:
>> >>>>>>> Well, the first answer that springs to mind is because Spain
>> >>>>>>> had
>> >>>>>>> recently kicked out all the dance musicians, who had moved to
>> >>>>>>> Italy.
>> >>>>>>> They were left with a bunch of upwardly mobile courtiers
>> >>>>>>> (Milan), and serious-minded priests with so much time on their
>> >>>>>>> hands that they intabulated every piece of vocal polyphony they
>> >>>>>>> could put their hands on.
>> >>>>>>> Actually, there is quite a bit of dance music in Fuenllana's
>> >>>>>>> print, some but much less in the other six published books.
>> >>>>>>> Also, there was quite a bit of dance music evident in Naples,
>> >>>>>>> which was Spanish at the time.
>> >>>>>>> RA
>> >>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 09:29:52 +0200
>> >>>>>>>> To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>> >>>>>>>> From: r.ba...@gmx.de
>> >>>>>>>> Subject: [LUTE] Spain vs. Italy
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Hi all,
>> >>>>>>>> In the early 1500s, why are dances so common in Italian lute
>> >>>>>>>> music
>> >>>>>>> and
>> >>>>>>>> so rare in the vihuela rep. ?
>> >>>>>>>> Thanks
>> >>>>>>>> --
>> >>>>>>>> Sent from my Android phone with GMX Mail. Please excuse my
>> >>>>>>>> brevity.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> >>>>>>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> --
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> --
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
