A short after-thought. Isn't the paper in the Cherbury ms. from France? But he often fought as a merceary. Arthur Ness arthurjn...@verizon.net -----Original Message----- From: Jarosà aw Lipski <jaroslawlip...@wp.pl> To: lute <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Sat, Feb 3, 2018 12:33 pm Subject: [LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book - Gautier Son adieu > You are quoting what Thurston Dart wrote in 1957. But Jean-Marie has > convincingly mentioned the letter which proved that lord Herbert was > involved in trying to get Jacques extradited back to France and > therefore "would not likely collect music by him". Of course, this is a > bit flimsy, as you could probably always distinguish between music and > the person in question. Exactly, one has to distinguish between music and the person in question. I doubt very much if this affair would discourage Herbert to collect Jaques music if he thought about it highly. > Some of those Gaultier pieces in Cherbury were > however published both in Besard and in Varietie, 1603 and 1610 > respectively, and Jacques would have been only 3 and 10 years at that > time, so not likely by him. There is of course a possibility that some > of the pieces were by Ennemond and some by Jacques. Further research > may prove this. As I wrote in my post Edward Herbert was collecting music during his life initially probably in form of sheet music which he copied later into his lute book, so exact attribution is very difficult. I never wrote that all the pieces titled Gaultier are identified. However, at least some of them seem to be composed by Jacques Gaultier, and this is not only mine and Thurston Dart's opinion. > As to the amateur status of lord Herbert, you only have to listen to > O'Dette's CD to completely loose this presumption. Many of the pieces > in the manuscript, are magnificent and highly professional and require > a high degree of dexterity to perform. I know Paul's CD, but amateur doesn't mean ignorant, or worthless. Writing âamateur" I meant that he played and collected music not for money, but rather for his personal entertainment. And this is what he wrote about himself: âI attained also to sing my part at first sight in music, and to play on the lute with very little or almost no teachingâ¦my learning of music was for this end that I might entertain myself at homeâ¦" Best JL > Best > G. > > On Sat, Feb 3, 2018 at 3:38 PM, JarosÃaw Lipski > <[1][1]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl> wrote: > > Most probably Gauthier refers to Jacques Gaultier d'Angleterre. > After killing his opponent in a duel Gaultier came to England in > 1617. He was a member of King's Musick beginning with 1619 until > 1648. Although Lord Herbert traveled both to France and Rome he > returned to London in 1617, so he had a good opportunity to meet > Jacques Gaultier who played there several times. In 1619 Edward > Herbert went back to Paris as an ambassador to the French court, > but had to leave after he opposed marriage between Prince Charles > and Henrietta Maria. King James in return banished him to Ireland > were Herbert spent almost 9 years, but from 1628 he was allowed to > return to Montgomery castle. The type of bindings in olive morocco > was already used in France by George Drobet on a book for Marie de > Medicis in 1611, so there are big chances that his lute book was > bound most probably in Paris, or it was bought by him ready made > from a bookseller on one of his trips to Paris (maybe from > Ballards?). > On the other hand Lord Cherbury was an amateur lute player and he > most probably used to copy pieces to his lute book from some loose > sheets of paper dated probably much earlier, and which he acquired > from renown lute players that he met. This is why we can't be sure > about exact dates and attribution of particular pieces, but it seems > very likely that he met Jacques Gaultier on several occasions and he > is the most likely composer of the compositions in question. > Best > JL >> WiadomoÃà napisana przez Alain Veylit > <[2][2]al...@musickshandmade.com> w dniu 02.02.2018, o godz. 19:04: >> >> >> There are two possible connections between Cherbury and > Ennemond >> Gautier: both were connected to the Montmorency household, and > Cherbury >> was acting as English ambassador at court when Ennemond moved > there ca. >> 1620. Yet Ennemond was apparently stingy when it came to > sharing his >> music and the music in the Cherb MS seems more representative > of his >> earlier stay in France and is consistently using the vieil ton. > So I >> still think that Jacques Gautier (d'Angleterre) is the more > likely >> author of the Adieu. >> I could not find the references to Cherbury on Peter Stueur's > site >> alas... (I wonder if the Vorhandene Manuskripte table could be > given >> its own page with more descriptive titles associated with the > sources >> numbers...) >> Alain >> >> On 02/02/2018 02:55 AM, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote: >> >> We do learn at all ages indeed ;-)! >> Au passage, thank you Alain for all your hard work so useful to > all of us ! >> Jen-Marie >> >> > >> Le 2 fà ©vr. 2018 à 11:10, G. C. [2]<[3][3]kalei...@gmail.com> a à ©crit > : >> >> I was not aware of lord Herbert's Jacques Gaultier extradition > letter >> (found on Alain's site). The fact that some of the pieces have >> concordances in both Besard (1603) and Varietie (1610), also > exclude >> Jacques. >> By the way, Alain, you should look at the concordances by Peter > Steur >> to update those on the Fandango Cherbury page, where the ms. is not > too >> unreadable. Very nice work, thanks Alain! >> G. >> On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 3:25 AM, Alain Veylit >> [3]<[1][4][4]al...@musickshandmade.com> wrote: >> Just a couple of points of recent history: back some 10 or 15 years >> ago, Joel Dugot from the French lute society >> >> -- >> >> References >> >> 1. [4][5]mailto:[5]al...@musickshandmade.com >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> [5][6][6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> References >> >> 1. [7][7]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jY4fsnOIpCE >> 2. [8]mailto:[8]kalei...@gmail.com >> 3. [9]mailto:[1][9]al...@musickshandmade.com >> 4. [10]mailto:[10]al...@musickshandmade.com >> 5. [11][11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> > > -- > > References > > 1. [12]mailto:jaroslawlip...@wp.pl > 2. [13]mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com > 3. [14]mailto:kalei...@gmail.com > 4. [15]mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com > 5. [16]mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com > 6. [17]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 7. [18]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jY4fsnOIpCE > 8. [19]mailto:kalei...@gmail.com > 9. [20]mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com > 10. [21]mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com > 11. [22]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
-- References 1. mailto:jaroslawlip...@wp.pl 2. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com 3. mailto:kalei...@gmail.com 4. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com 5. mailto:[5]al...@musickshandmade.com? 6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 7. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jY4fsnOIpCE 8. mailto:[8]kalei...@gmail.com? 9. mailto:[1][9]al...@musickshandmade.com? 10. mailto:[10]al...@musickshandmade.com? 11. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 12. mailto:jaroslawlip...@wp.pl? 13. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com? 14. mailto:kalei...@gmail.com? 15. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com? 16. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com? 17. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 18. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jY4fsnOIpCE 19. mailto:kalei...@gmail.com? 20. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com? 21. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com? 22. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
