I hereby propose the following theory: Giovanni Pierluigi da Palestrina is a fiction; much like Santa Claus, if you will. You see, I, among a host of thinking people deem it impossible for one man from Rome to compose such a large oeuvre: 105 masses, 68 offertories, at least 140 madrigals, more than 300 motets, 75 hymns, 35 magnificats, 11 litanies, and 4-5 sets of lamentations. Instead, I propose that 'his' works were actually composed by a team of collaborators, including, but not limited to Gesualdo, Arcadelt, Gabrieli, des Perez, J. S. Bach, Robert Burns, and Dr. Suess. All under the auspices of pope Julius III, his alleged employer. The elites wanted and want you to think Palestrina composed those works, because they have an insatiable urge to fabricate amd distribute lies to the masses for no apparent gain or reason. Wake up, Sheeple! On Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 23:52 Ron Andrico <[1]praelu...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Truth to tell, I have absolutely no agenda to push here. I have no preconceived ideas about Shakespeare and nothing to promote or defend. In fact, as a staunch supporter of the working class who believes the royals and the power elite to be nothing more than a useless irritant and blight upon the earth, I should want to believe that William Shakespeare rose from humble roots and proved to be a brilliant writer. Like John Dowland, who actually rose from presumably humble roots to become a brilliant composer. It's just that I, like a host of other thinking persons, find it difficult to swallow this particular myth. Sort of like Santa Claus. But don't take my word for it. "How curious and interesting is the parallel--as far as poverty of biographical details is concerned--between Satan and Shakespeare. ...They are the best-known unknown persons that have ever drawn breath upon the planet." - Mark Twain, "Is Shakespeare Dead?" __________________________________________________________________ From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf of T.J. Sellari <[4]tsell...@gmail.com> Sent: Monday, September 17, 2018 5:36 PM To: [5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: The awful English language I hope we might include Shakespeare scholars in the group of "thinking" people who have considered this question; they indeed have made the relevant scholarship a focus of their careers. As I'm sure many on this list know already, no scholar proposes that Shakespeare wrote every word of the plays attributed to him. On many plays, he had collaborators, and scholars continue to dedicate considerable effort to trying to figure out the scope and nature of his collaborations. (See, for example, Sir Brian Vickers' _Shakespeare, Co-Author: A Historical Study of Five Collaborative Plays_.) To argue that the case for Shakespeare as the sole author of all of his works is yet to be proven misses the point entirely; nobody is trying to prove it, because nobody believes it. But that is not to accept the far-fetched idea that a group of collaborators wrote all the works. There's only "thinking" behind this idea, and absolutely no evidence. It is literally a historical conspiracy theory. Shapiro's book explains why. Perhaps this issue has nothing to do with lute music, but I assume that members of this list are interested in historical accuracy in any case. The "informed belief" that Shakespeare's works were written by a committee is actually very poorly informed. Since I have learned a great deal from this list, I thought I should contribute a small bit of more reliable information when I got the chance. Tom On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 12:41 AM Ron Andrico <[1][6]praelu...@hotmail.com> wrote: I'm familiar with Shapiro's work. The authorship question indeed. It is a question and not a given. Some like to say the man from Stratford was the sole author of the tremendous output of the works of Shakespeare. That is a theory that has yet to be proven, no matter what your scholars of English Renaissance literature like to propose. A thinking person considers that tremendous output and weighs it against the physical reality of the amount of time required to produce all that scribbling in light of the work a player like William Shakespeare was required to do in order to survive. Then a thinking person considers how persons of noble rank would refrain from publishing their work (Sidney's work was published posthumously). And a thinking person observes how authors and musicians would participate in a salon atmosphere under the patronage of someone like Lucy Countess of Bedford. I have had the opportunity to delve into the subject, and the evidence points to work produced by more than one author that retains a consistent voice due to a collaborative effort with a common goal. Like the collaborative effort that produced the King James Bible. What does this have to do with lute music anyway? __________________________________________________________________ From: [2][7]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <[3][8]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf of T.J. Sellari <[4][9]tsell...@gmail.com> Sent: Monday, September 17, 2018 3:19 PM To: [5][10]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: The awful English language Re: Shakespeare authorship question There are many theories that purport to cast doubt on Shakespeare's authorship of the plays attributed to him, but scholars of English Renaisssance literature consider them largely nonsense. I suggest you take a look at _Contested Will_ by James Shapiro. A review of the book can be found here: [1][6][11]https://www.theguardian.com/books/2010/mar/20/contested-wi ll-w ho-wro te-shakespeare On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 7:16 PM Ron Andrico <[2][7][12]praelu...@hotmail.com> wrote: Absolument, Alain. Many forget that the English court was actually French until the upstart Henry Tudor slaughtered his way to the throne. Even then, French was spoken at court through much of the 16th century. As for the less-than-eloquent William Shakespeare, it's just plain silly to think he actually wrote the canon commonly attributed to his name. He was a player, a station lower than that of a professional musician. We can support various theories of who wrote the works commonly attributed to Shakespeare, but my informed belief is that they were written by committee, just like the King James Bible was a few years hence. I think there is strong evidence that the plays arose from the circle surrounding Lucy Countess of Bedford, including the likes of John Donne, Ben Jonson, Edmund Spenser, Samuel Danyel. There is also a theory that the very literate Countess of Pembroke, Sir Philip Sidney's sister, may have dipped her quill in. William Shakepeare the playwright is a successful bit of propaganda that paved the way for other enormous lies that the public buys. It's really very easy for those in a position of power to promote an idea with PR and make the public believe it. Like A=415 was historical baroque pitch, for instance. __________________________________________________________________ From: [3][8][13]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <[4][9][14]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf of Alain Veylit <[5][10][15]al...@musickshandmade.com> Sent: Monday, September 17, 2018 8:37 AM To: howard posner; Lute net Subject: [LUTE] Re: The awful English language If you really want to have a blast at the awful English language, look for something called "law French", a language understood only by English lawyers and very much alive until at least the 18th century. It makes modern legaleeze sound simple, although still difficult to read because in very small letters. Many poor people sent to the gallows had no idea what was said at court... Joke aside, given the introduction of many French words into English (500 words from Montaigne's translator alone) and the still fairly strong presence of French as a an aristocratic language for the few and the famous still in the 16th century, I am wondering if Shakespearian English did not sound quite a bit more French than one might think. Which could mean that to study Elizabethan English, you might have to study Quebecois French, supposedly much closer to 17th century French than Paris French... Or also study modern English pronunciation of Latin, which to my ears sounds quite painful - specially the diphtongs... For example: modern English "Sir", from the French "sieur" (as in monsieur) might have sounded closer to the original French "sire" (lord/majesty : monsieur = mon sire = my lord); the word "court" might have sounded closer to the French "cour". I vaguely remember something about the great diphtong shift in English phonetics - that might account for the split from the French word "Sire" (same "i" as Apple's "Siri") to the modern "Sir" and "Sire". One diphtonguized the other not. But the French is ambiguous since we have both the word "sieur" (Pronounced pretty close to "sir" and meaning "lord" ) and "sire" (pronounced close to "Siri" and meaning Majesty). Americans might want to check this video to speak proper modern English: [1][6][11][16]https://youtu.be/d7RTUXKv9KU and learn about diphtongs... It's quite scientific, you know... On 09/16/2018 01:27 PM, howard posner wrote: >> On Sep 16, 2018, at 12:14 PM, Matthew Daillie <[7][12][17]dail...@club-internet.fr> wrote: >> >> You might be interested in this video which summarizes some of the research carried out by David Crystal et al on English pronunciation at the time of Shakespeare (and Dowland) and the productions of his plays at the Globe theatre using 'Original Pronunciation': >> [2][8][13][18]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gPlpphT7n9s > Indeed, I was interested enough to have seen it already. It explores the differences between modern Received Pronunciation that London stage actors traditionally use, and the London stage accent of 400 years ago, which is in many ways similar to the way English sounds in Bristol now. Of course, it's all a little peripheral to the question of whether Shakespeare might have spelled differently in a letter to his wife in Stratford than he would in a play to be spoken in London, or whether anyone would have cared. > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > [3][9][14][19]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [10][15][20]https://youtu.be/d7RTUXKv9KU 2. [11][16][21]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gPlpphT7n9s 3. [12][17][22]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [1][18][23]https://www.theguardian.com/books/2010/mar/20/contested-w ill- who-wro te-shakespeare 2. [2]mailto:[19][24]praelu...@hotmail.com 3. [3]mailto:[20][25]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. [4]mailto:[21][26]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. [5]mailto:[22][27]al...@musickshandmade.com 6. [6][23][28]https://youtu.be/d7RTUXKv9KU 7. [7]mailto:[24][29]dail...@club-internet.fr 8. [8][25][30]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gPlpphT7n9s 9. [9][26][31]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 10. [10][27][32]https://youtu.be/d7RTUXKv9KU 11. [11][28][33]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gPlpphT7n9s 12. [12][29][34]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [30][35]https://www.theguardian.com/books/2010/mar/20/contested-will -who -wrote-shakespeare 2. mailto:[31][36]praelu...@hotmail.com 3. mailto:[32][37]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. mailto:[33][38]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. mailto:[34][39]al...@musickshandmade.com 6. [35][40]https://youtu.be/d7RTUXKv9KU 7. mailto:[36][41]dail...@club-internet.fr 8. [37][42]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gPlpphT7n9s 9. [38][43]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 10. [39][44]https://youtu.be/d7RTUXKv9KU 11. [40][45]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gPlpphT7n9s 12. [41][46]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [1]mailto:[47]praelu...@hotmail.com 2. [2]mailto:[48]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. [3]mailto:[49]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. [4]mailto:[50]tsell...@gmail.com 5. [5]mailto:[51]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 6. [6][52]https://www.theguardian.com/books/2010/mar/20/contested-will- who-wro 7. [7]mailto:[53]praelu...@hotmail.com 8. [8]mailto:[54]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 9. [9]mailto:[55]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 10. [10]mailto:[56]al...@musickshandmade.com 11. [11][57]https://youtu.be/d7RTUXKv9KU 12. [12]mailto:[58]dail...@club-internet.fr 13. [13][59]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gPlpphT7n9s 14. [14][60]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 15. [15][61]https://youtu.be/d7RTUXKv9KU 16. [16][62]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gPlpphT7n9s 17. [17][63]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 18. [18][64]https://www.theguardian.com/books/2010/mar/20/contested-will -who-wr o 19. [19]mailto:[65]praelu...@hotmail.com 20. [20]mailto:[66]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 21. [21]mailto:[67]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 22. [22]mailto:[68]al...@musickshandmade.com 23. [23][69]https://youtu.be/d7RTUXKv9KU 24. [24]mailto:[70]dail...@club-internet.fr 25. [25][71]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gPlpphT7n9s 26. [26][72]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 27. [27][73]https://youtu.be/d7RTUXKv9KU 28. [28][74]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gPlpphT7n9s 29. [29][75]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 30. [30][76]https://www.theguardian.com/books/2010/mar/20/contested-will -who-wr ote-shakespeare 31. [31]mailto:[77]praelu...@hotmail.com 32. [32]mailto:[78]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 33. [33]mailto:[79]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 34. [34]mailto:[80]al...@musickshandmade.com 35. [35][81]https://youtu.be/d7RTUXKv9KU 36. [36]mailto:[82]dail...@club-internet.fr 37. [37][83]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gPlpphT7n9s 38. [38][84]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 39. [39][85]https://youtu.be/d7RTUXKv9KU 40. [40][86]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gPlpphT7n9s 41. [41][87]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:[88]praelu...@hotmail.com 2. mailto:[89]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. mailto:[90]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. mailto:[91]tsell...@gmail.com 5. mailto:[92]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 6. [93]https://www.theguardian.com/books/2010/mar/20/contested-will-who -wro 7. mailto:[94]praelu...@hotmail.com 8. mailto:[95]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 9. mailto:[96]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 10. mailto:[97]al...@musickshandmade.com 11. [98]https://youtu.be/d7RTUXKv9KU 12. mailto:[99]dail...@club-internet.fr 13. [100]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gPlpphT7n9s 14. [101]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 15. [102]https://youtu.be/d7RTUXKv9KU 16. [103]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gPlpphT7n9s 17. [104]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 18. [105]https://www.theguardian.com/books/2010/mar/20/contested-will-wh o-wro 19. mailto:[106]praelu...@hotmail.com 20. mailto:[107]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 21. mailto:[108]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 22. mailto:[109]al...@musickshandmade.com 23. [110]https://youtu.be/d7RTUXKv9KU 24. mailto:[111]dail...@club-internet.fr 25. [112]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gPlpphT7n9s 26. [113]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 27. [114]https://youtu.be/d7RTUXKv9KU 28. [115]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gPlpphT7n9s 29. [116]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 30. [117]https://www.theguardian.com/books/2010/mar/20/contested-will-wh o-wrote-shakespeare 31. mailto:[118]praelu...@hotmail.com 32. mailto:[119]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 33. mailto:[120]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 34. mailto:[121]al...@musickshandmade.com 35. [122]https://youtu.be/d7RTUXKv9KU 36. mailto:[123]dail...@club-internet.fr 37. [124]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gPlpphT7n9s 38. [125]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 39. [126]https://youtu.be/d7RTUXKv9KU 40. [127]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gPlpphT7n9s 41. [128]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com 2. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. mailto:tsell...@gmail.com 5. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 6. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com 7. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 8. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 9. mailto:tsell...@gmail.com 10. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 11. https://www.theguardian.com/books/2010/mar/20/contested-will-w 12. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com 13. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 14. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 15. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com 16. https://youtu.be/d7RTUXKv9KU 17. mailto:dail...@club-internet.fr 18. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gPlpphT7n9s 19. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 20. https://youtu.be/d7RTUXKv9KU 21. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gPlpphT7n9s 22. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 23. https://www.theguardian.com/books/2010/mar/20/contested-will- 24. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com 25. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 26. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 27. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com 28. https://youtu.be/d7RTUXKv9KU 29. mailto:dail...@club-internet.fr 30. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gPlpphT7n9s 31. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 32. https://youtu.be/d7RTUXKv9KU 33. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gPlpphT7n9s 34. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 35. https://www.theguardian.com/books/2010/mar/20/contested-will-who 36. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com 37. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 38. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 39. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com 40. https://youtu.be/d7RTUXKv9KU 41. mailto:dail...@club-internet.fr 42. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gPlpphT7n9s 43. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 44. https://youtu.be/d7RTUXKv9KU 45. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gPlpphT7n9s 46. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 47. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com 48. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 49. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 50. mailto:tsell...@gmail.com 51. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 52. https://www.theguardian.com/books/2010/mar/20/contested-will-who-wro 53. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com 54. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 55. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 56. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com 57. https://youtu.be/d7RTUXKv9KU 58. mailto:dail...@club-internet.fr 59. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gPlpphT7n9s 60. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 61. https://youtu.be/d7RTUXKv9KU 62. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gPlpphT7n9s 63. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 64. https://www.theguardian.com/books/2010/mar/20/contested-will-who-wr 65. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com 66. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 67. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 68. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com 69. https://youtu.be/d7RTUXKv9KU 70. mailto:dail...@club-internet.fr 71. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gPlpphT7n9s 72. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 73. https://youtu.be/d7RTUXKv9KU 74. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gPlpphT7n9s 75. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 76. https://www.theguardian.com/books/2010/mar/20/contested-will-who-wr 77. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com 78. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 79. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 80. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com 81. https://youtu.be/d7RTUXKv9KU 82. mailto:dail...@club-internet.fr 83. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gPlpphT7n9s 84. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 85. https://youtu.be/d7RTUXKv9KU 86. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gPlpphT7n9s 87. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 88. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com 89. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 90. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 91. mailto:tsell...@gmail.com 92. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 93. https://www.theguardian.com/books/2010/mar/20/contested-will-who-wro 94. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com 95. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 96. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 97. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com 98. https://youtu.be/d7RTUXKv9KU 99. mailto:dail...@club-internet.fr 100. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gPlpphT7n9s 101. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 102. https://youtu.be/d7RTUXKv9KU 103. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gPlpphT7n9s 104. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 105. https://www.theguardian.com/books/2010/mar/20/contested-will-who-wro 106. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com 107. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 108. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 109. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com 110. https://youtu.be/d7RTUXKv9KU 111. mailto:dail...@club-internet.fr 112. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gPlpphT7n9s 113. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 114. https://youtu.be/d7RTUXKv9KU 115. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gPlpphT7n9s 116. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 117. https://www.theguardian.com/books/2010/mar/20/contested-will-who-wrote-shakespeare 118. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com 119. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 120. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 121. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com 122. https://youtu.be/d7RTUXKv9KU 123. mailto:dail...@club-internet.fr 124. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gPlpphT7n9s 125. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 126. https://youtu.be/d7RTUXKv9KU 127. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gPlpphT7n9s 128. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html