I guess period documentation is out of the question for the moment.
Though I find it very odd that the best match can be found in the music
of Giovanni Gabrieli.
His music or the process of composition is not really explained with the
theorists.
That is why one had to study with him personally. How he really taught
his methods remains a mystery.
But obviously, this sparked whole new schools all over Europe.
The question is: did musicians get information about music in India, how
was it transferred?
I would love to dig into the archives of Venice, Florence etc.
concerning trade agreements, embassies etc.
I have no funds, I'll leave it to people compelled by the musical evidence.
Indian Music is also taught only to disciples. This is still the case
today, and the music has been preserved for 500 years and more.
(Dagar family schools for example)
We have the rare opportunity to study this music and learn something
about Early Music this way, for example how Musica Ficta rules are
established, or general things like tempi and rhythm.
Even if it just heightens the senses and awareness of rhythmic cycles
and hidden ostinato models.
From 1600 onwards, it is much easier to find clear matches with Indian
music. Logically this means something has changed *towards* it.
The music is almost always of Venetian School heritage (Valentini,
Bertali etc.), basically what one finds in Partiturbuch Ludwig and
similar collections.
I recently found someone from South India who is very good at suggesting
Ragas for European Music.
Some pieces just ring the bell instantly, for example this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLnp-1lgc44
Raga Keeravani/Kirwani - a model set in the harmonic minor scale. But it
is not the scale, but special phrases that make a Raga.
In the Sonata you can hear quasi-glissandi (though written as discrete
chromatic notes), which the musicians happily accept.
It is not "sounds similar to Kirwani", it really is the exact structure
and approach of the notes. Valentini gives it every polyphonic treatment
possible within the boundaries of the model.
When someone from India tells me that this is an exact and correct
representation of the Raga, I'm inclined to believe him.
Anyway, I will dig deeper and maybe find more convincing examples.
On 13.07.19 15:32, Braig, Eugene wrote:
Exactly, which is exactly why these "interesting new discoveries" aren't
necessarily. No musician generates music without any reference to other music. Audible
similarities are to be expected, especially given the universal nature of physical
acoustics. Now, finding a collection of ca. 1600 Sikh music in an old Venetian library,
that *would* be interesting.
I intend no offense, but I don't see why these similarities—even if granted to be
strong—constitute exciting discoveries. . . . yet again. Without explicit period
documentation, these assertions read to me as a form of "cum hoc ergo propter
hoc" (perhaps specifically ignoring a common cause) or fallacious faulty
generalization.
Eugene
-----Original Message-----
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> On Behalf Of
Tristan von Neumann
Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2019 8:12 AM
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Siena Manuscript No. 17 - Ricercar
This is no coincidence.
The musicians have classical education. Rite of Spring is the Pachelbel Canon
of the 20th century and every rock musician has probably heard and loved it.
Also this one lifted from Bruckner's 5th:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0J2QdDbelmY
On 13.07.19 12:37, Daniel Shoskes wrote:
https://www.classicfm.com/discover-music/queen-we-are-champions-rite-o
f-spring/
[News from India - please ignore if it does not interest you]
A new interesting discovery I made will probably upset some of you.
I have now evidence that Sikh music can be found in lute sources:
The Ricercar "no. 17" from the Siena Manuscript is a Raga
Dhanaseri/Dhanashri piece.
The same model is also used in "La Spiritata" by Giovanni Gabrieli.
Both mashups can be heard here:
https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/siena-manuscript-ricercar
-no-17-mode-1-raga-dhanaseri-shaan-prof-surinder-singh
https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/giovanni-gabrieli-la-spir
itata-raga-dhanashri-ii-better-mix
If you are able to synthesize the two layers, you will notice it.
Why use Sikh models? They were relatively tolerant monotheists -
probably safe to deal with when you are a Jesuit, music transfer is
also easy.
Even today, music is the main expression of Sikh faith.
There are note syllables for smooth communication, most of the
concepts are compatible with European understanding of music, but require
adjustment.
The material for this topic requires more pages than I thought (300+).
I'm on it though. Some encouraging words would be great instead of trolling.
[Thank you for your attention.]
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