to my opinion it would be great if someone anyone would record an identical
piece of renaissance music twice: once in equal temperament and once in a
different tuning so that everybody can appreciate the difference.
Of course, one thing that nobody mentioned in this discussion is our
"well-tempered" music that from early childhood onward has conditioned our
hearing - Arab and Indian musicians hear those micro-intervals much better than
we do because their everyday sonic environment contains them. I assume that in
the 16th century European ears were differently trained than ours today and
hence the music-playing public would hear those intervals that we judge to be
of lesser importance. There is a hypothesis that monophonic non-western music
survives with little changes precisely because of these subtle intervals that
are charged with emotional expressiveness whereas our western harmonic equal
'temperamented' music ended its development around 1900 when all possibilities
had been explored. - I do not know if we can improve our hearing so as to
recognize the subtleties of non-equal temperament once we are older than 20 or
so.
Whatever the case, it would be great to hear the difference in an example - it
should be remarkable in a slower Dall'Aquila fantasia or something similar.
Best wishes
Jurgen
----------------------------------
“Close your eyes. Fall in love. Stay there.”
Jalāl ad-Dīn Muhammad Rumi
‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
On Sunday, July 21, 2019 11:19 PM, Martyn Hodgson
<hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
> Thank you Rafael,
> I am intrigued. Would you kindly tell us precisely how you fret your
> instrument? I mean the exact cents you employ for each fret, from fret
> one through to fret 10 for each of the temperaments you employ.
> regards
> MH
>
> On Sunday, 21 July 2019, 16:13:00 BST, Rafael Muñoz RodrÃguez
> rafalu...@yahoo.es wrote:
> Dear all,
> I would like to share my thoughts on this matter, based on my
> experience as a gigging and recording musician. Since around 2006 I use
> a modified meantone temperament wich, in my opinion, works practically
> for fretted plucked instruments. I use it on my theorbo, my archlute
> and (only for concerts wich include pieces in distant modes) on my
> Renaissance lute and vihuela (Baroque guitar and Baroque lute are
> different beasts regarding historical temperaments in my experience).
> We could say that it is a temperament wich sits between 1/4 meantone
> and the well tempered baroque temperaments. Mayor thirds are not
> totally pure and fifths are slightly wider than meantone. It works
> beautifully for solo playing and, for what it ´s worth, it works for me
> as a chamber music/ continuo player in the real-professional world
> (maybe some other players can share their experiences here too).
> For concerts, I place my frets and tune my strings using this
> temperament and then I make (usually very) slight adjustments with
> frets and open strings depending on the keys that will be most used and
> in order to be as close as possible to the actual historical
> temperament wich the cembalo is using (Meantone, Valloti, Kirnberger,
> French temperaments...) BUT without going too far and making my
> instrument sound out of tune when played alone. If it is needed I use
> one or two tastinos. Then, for example, when using a theorbo, I usually
> adjust my 4th fret for sharps and I play G sharp and D sharp always in
> the fourth fret, second string and third string respectively. In
> absence of a tastino, I avoid 4th and 5th strings in the first fret and
> I use them only for A flat and E flat. I also avoid to play certain
> notes in specific frets wich shouldn ´t be moved, like A sharp (third
> fret fourth string) or C sharp (sixth fret fourth string). And that ´s
> all.
> For recording, I use this temperament as a basis but, if needed, I
> use more tastini and I adjust the frets for each individual movement or
> piece.
> Maybe I have been very lucky but, in all honesty, I have never been
> asked to modify or change my tuning (in fourteen years of live playing
> and recording) because it didn ´t work with the historical temperament
> in use. My temperament doesn ´t completely match that of the
> cembalo/organ, etc... but it is much closer than equal temperament and
> with minor adjustments it works in any situation as long as my
> instrument sounds in tune by itself too. Of course, if you ´re playing
> a concert with lots of different keys (for example a big Opera or
> Oratorio) and the conductor asks for equal temperament, you know what
> to do. On the other hand, try to record an aria or recitativo by
> Monteverdi with a cembalo and a singer and using equal
> temperament...some fifths maybe passable but mayor thirds will be
> unacceptable.
> Sorry for the long post.
> Cheers,
> Rafael
> En domingo, 21 de julio de 2019 11:19:08 CEST, Martyn Hodgson
> hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu escribió:
>
> Dear Matthew,
> Thank you for his - though I really do not know why you suggest a
> 'slanging match'!. My intention is merely to put some historical and
> practical perspective on the matter rather than simple personal
> assertion. To repeat: you are making the common mistake of
>
>
> discussing
> theoretical temperaments (mainly, in practice, only employable on
> keyboard instruments) with practical temperaments appropriate for
> fretted instruments such as the lute.
> Whether or not some modern players might adopt this manner
> ('meantone')
> of fretting is not, of course, the point - perhaps they might
> themselves engage in a degree of wishful thinking. Certainly, modern
> fashions come and go as fast as fads, and in other areas of lute
> performance practice some modern players (even a few professionals
> who
> might be expected to know better) still insist on, for example,
> employing thumb-under for repertoire other than the sixteenth
> century.
> In short, such anecdotal reports, even from 'professionals, are not
> reliable evidence of historic practice.
> regards
> MH
> On Sunday, 21 July 2019, 09:37:33 BST, Matthew Daillie
> <[1]dail...@club-internet.fr> wrote:
>
> I certainly do not wish to get into a slanging match here, I was
>
>
> merely
> responding to a request for practical help with temperaments. In my
> opinion, the prerequisite for that is to have some understanding of
> the
> basics of the theory and above all, to get one's ears used to hearing
> pure intervals, which is no more complicated than hearing octaves
> (some
> would claim that it is actually easier).
> It is perfectly feasible to tune a lute to some form of meantone with
> fairly minimal means (I do not favour the use of slanting frets). The
> proof is that many of the top players do it, both for recordings and
> public performances. Once the lute is set up, this merely requires
> the
> adjustment of a fret or two between certain pieces, so hardly rocket
> science.
> One cannot simply dismiss out of hand the use of meantone on the
> lute.
> It can be enriching and satisfying for those players who wish to
> explore the possibilities but it is not a sine que non for playing
> the
> lute. It is often made to appear unnecessarily complicated but the
> fundamentals (which are are frequently overlooked) are perfectly
> accessible to any lutenist.
> I have no bone to pick here (I play the renaissance lute in both
> meantone and equal temperaments and the baroque lute almost
> exclusively
> in equal temperament), but I do react unfavorably to sweeping
> statements that have little grounding in fact.
> Best,
> Matthew
> Le 21 juil. 2019 Ã 08:07, Martyn Hodgson
> <[1][2]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu> a à ©crit :
>
> > Dear Matthew,
>
> > Yes - of course this is the case. But you are making the common
>
> mistake
> > of discussing theoretical temperaments (mainly, in practice, only
>
> > employable on keyboard instruments) with practical temperaments
>
> > appropriate for fretted instruments such as the lute.
>
> > The problem is, of course, that a single fret across the
>
>
> fingerboard
> > may have to suit for both a major or a minor semitone depending on
>
> the
> > open tuning and key. Such things as slanted frets can sometimes
>
>
> be
> > used on the viol when playing simple single melodic lines, but
> with
> > chords, as commonly found on the lute, matters are entirely
>
> different.
> > The idea of tastini as reported by Galilei (1584) has also
>
>
> beguiled
> > some modern players but in practice they are far from practical
> for
> > works with any significant degree of fingering complexity and,
>
> > moreover, Galilei himself makes it clear that it is not a practice
>
> he
> > advocates - indeed, he castigates those few who employ it.
>
> > Incidentally, there's also a real dearth of iconographic evidence
>
>
> to
> > support the practice (or indeed slanted frets) on the lute which
> is,
> > surely, very telling.
>
> > In short, all these theoretical meanderings about meantone on the
>
> lute
> > is, with the exception of small parts of the repertoire, simply
>
> > self-delusion and wishful thinking ('I have a better sense of
>
>
> tuning
> > than you'......).
>
> > As mentioned by others earlier in this thread, early evidence
>
> clearly
> > points in the direction of some approximation to equal
>
>
> temperament.
> > MH
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
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> --
>
>
> References
> 1. mailto:[4]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu
> 2. [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> References
>
> 1. mailto:dail...@club-internet.fr
> 2. mailto:hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu
> 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 4. mailto:hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu
> 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
