It seems you don't play madrigals very often, where you will encounter
all kinds of accidentals and weird chords.
Here's one famous example going through the circle of fifths:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBmMlkuDRfI
There is ample evidence, that this music was played also with fewer
singers and viols, keyboards and/or lutes.
Temperament really is an issue here.
On 26.07.19 21:22, guy_and_liz Smith wrote:
As a wind player, I've played from or at least looked at several hundred
facsimiles of 16th and early 17th century polyphony (mostly English, German,
Italian, and Flemish) and they were all notated as either zero or one flat (B
flat). Notes were sometimes modified by a sharp or flat accidental, but not
consistently enough that I'd call it a key, as we think of it. I've heard of
pieces from that period with sharps or more than one flat notated on the staff,
but I've never run across one. They can't be very common.
Guy
-----Original Message-----
From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
[mailto:lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Matthew Daillie
Sent: Friday, July 26, 2019 11:45 AM
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu list
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Test 9od temperament)
Martyn, I understand people's reluctance to spend precious playing time writing
out all their fret calculations for you. There are umpteen calculators on the
net for fret placement (all you need to do is type in the string length) and
all the formulas you might need on David van Ooijen's website (for example).
Asking for a specific player's precise numbers seems pointless to me as the
result in terms of temperament will depend on the action of the lute, the type
of strings used, the thickness of frets (to a degree) and the lutenist's
ability to make subtle changes in intonation with the left hand. A fret chart
will help to get the basic placement but then one will need to adjust by ear to
get the essential pure major thirds the piece requires (if one is using 1/4
comma meantone) along with the colour of chords one wants and and the precise
tuning of key notes. Tastini may be added and if one is playing a set of
pieces, one will probably need to occasionally move a fret or two between works
(one designs the programme to limit these changes).
It might be useful to remember also that the idea of tonality is anachronistic
when applied to the Renaissance period (when thinking was still very much
modal) and even if we do impose our modern idea of keys on early pieces,
composers rarely venture further than keys with no more than three sharps or
flats.
Best,
Matthew
Le 26 juil. 2019 à 18:49, Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu>
a écrit :
Dear Howard,
Well - until we have a more quantifiable idea of the objective results
of what people actually hear 'by their ears' we're in a land of
make-believe where vague unquantifiable assertion carries more
weight than any scientific considerations.
It's surely not much to ask of those, who have somehow set their frets
according to what they perceive as being some particular preferred
'meantone', to share the fruits of their work by publishing their
measurable fret positions.
As it is it is hard to see what is meant by setting a lute entirely in
'meantone' since, without multiple movable frets (as, for example,
Thompson's experimental guitar) this is simply not physically possible
since, as also said before, it fails to properly address the core
issue
of minor and major semitones on different courses but on the same
fret.
As also already remarked: who knows, it might even lead to some
helpful consensus.
MH
On Friday, 26 July 2019, 17:11:50 BST, howard posner
<howardpos...@ca.rr.com> wrote:
You might want to reread the part about using your ears. "Precise fret
positions" is an irrelevant concept if you tune by actually listening;
that's why your repeated demands for numbers are going unanswered.
On Jul 26, 2019, at 6:40 AM, Martyn Hodgson
<[1]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
Thank you Stephan,
Would you kindly share what precise fret positions result when you
set
the
'fifth fret so high that you can still enjoy and work your way
through.....'
MH
On Friday, 26 July 2019, 13:17:31 BST, Stephan Olbertz
<[2]stephan.olbe...@web.de> wrote:
You wouldn't even need a tuner. Just set a fifth fret so high that
you
can
still enjoy and work your way through all the other frets and open
courses
by means of comparing octaves and unisons.
Use strings that are neither too old nor too new. And be sure to
tune
to a
fourth based tuning.
Regards
Stephan
Im Auftrag
von Roland Hayes
Gesendet: Freitag, 26. Juli 2019 13:36
An: Martyn Hodgson; [3][3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Steve Ramey
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Test 9od temperament)
Or you could get a meantone tuner and use your ears and not a
measuring
tape
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