Thumb out does not rule out alternating strokes of thumb and index, p -
i is feasible with thumb out as well.
Even someone as late as Charles Mouton has it in his double on
Gaultier's Belle Homicide, to quote just one example.
Mathias
__________________________________________________________________
Gesendet mit der [1]Telekom Mail App
--- Original-Nachricht ---
Von: Ron Andrico
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: RH folk style
Datum: 02.08.2019, 2:51 Uhr
An: Tristan von Neumann, lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Tristan, while Vallet was very specific about right-hand fingering, I'm
fairly certain there are no indications for thumb-index alternation in
Ballard's music, and it's a leap to think that articulation marks are
specifically tied to right-hand fingering. Yes, there are right-hand
dots but I remain unconvinced that these single dots are specific to
use of the right-hand index finger. The dots could just as well simply
indicate weak beats so the reader can keep track for the purpose of
articulation, regardless of which digit is used on the strong beat.
RA
__________________________________________________________________
From: [2]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
<[3]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf of Tristan von
Neumann <[4]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>
Sent: Thursday, August 1, 2019 9:26 PM
To: [5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu <[6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Subject: [LUTE] Re: RH folk style
Robert Ballard seems to have used thumb in though, as the points show.
And that was after Besard and Dowland.
I think the music always suggests thumb-out, if it was supposed to be
played that way.
If you have passages in the upper part accompanied by deep bass, you
automatically use index-middle-finger, because it's easier to play.
Some tablatures seem to even suggest both techniques in one piece.
The same pieces have different fingerings in different sources
sometimes.
On 01.08.19 22:03, Mathias R��sel wrote:
> Well, I've been a member on the list as well. As it seems to me,
all
> authors after 1600 who deal with this subject recommend thumb
out.
> Vallet even ridicules thumb in.
> We'll never know what player actually did, if they complied with
the
> recommendations. Today, research on strings and soundboards
points into
> the same direction: thumb out.
> Everybody is free, if course, to do what they like best.
Everybody has
> been so, ever since. I don't care. And I don't want to listen to
> players who play the baroque lute thumb in, any more.
> my two cents. just an ordinary member
> Mathias
>
__________________________________________________________________
>
> Gesendet mit der [1]Telekom Mail App
> --- Original-Nachricht ---
> Von: G. C.
> Betreff: [LUTE] Re: RH folk style
> Datum: 01.08.2019, 21:46 Uhr
> An: Lutelist
>
> Eloquently said Ron, as always!
> G.
> tor. 1. aug. 2019 kl. 21.28 skrev Ron Andrico
> <[1][2][7]praelu...@hotmail.com>:
> Relax, Howard. No one is on trial here. Perhaps anathema is a
> less
> apt choice to describe alternatives to a right-hand position for
> playing post-1600 repertory on proper lutes. But for all
> intents and
> purposes, thumb-under technique is certainly not an historically
> appropriate right-hand position for what we call baroque lute.
> That is
> not to say it was never used, but Besard (Dowland) and Vallet,
> said it
> in print, and there are countless pictorial representations from
> the
> period that strongly suggest the right-hand thumb was very, very
> much
> out.
> This is a difficult truth to countenance for all those notable
> soldiers
> of the famous 1970s thumb-under brigade, who fought long and
> loudly to
> distinguish themselves from lute-dabbling classical guitarists
> (even to
> the point of eschewing the wearing of the ceremonial black
> turtleneck),
> but it is a truth nonetheless. I'll say it here: Based upon the
> body
> of surviving evidence from the period, lutes with diapasons
> designed to
> be used for post-1600 music were historically intended to be
> played
> with the right-hand thumb out, not under.
> RA
>
__________________________________________________________________
> From: [2][3][8]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
> <[3][4][9]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf of
howard
> posner
> <[4][5][10]howardpos...@ca.rr.com>
> Sent: Thursday, August 1, 2019 5:18 PM
> To: Lutelist <[5][6][11]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: RH folk style
> I'm not aware of anyone on this stating categorically that
> thumb-in is
> anathema on the d-minor lute. But I could easily have missed
> it, or
> deleted it and forgotten about it. I tend not to waste time
> dealing
> with categorical statements about how every player in history
> played
> the same way. And if, by chance, I've ever written anything here
> in the
> last 25 years that sounds like a categorical statement about the
> way
> every player, ever, played the same way, chalk it up to sloppy
> writing
> (or thinking), delete it, and forget about it.
> > On Aug 1, 2019, at 9:23 AM, G. C. <[6][7][12]kalei...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > People on this list f. ex.?
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> [1][7][8][13]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> --
> References
> 1. [8][9][14]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> --
> References
> 1. mailto:[10][15]praelu...@hotmail.com
> 2. mailto:[11][16]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
> 3. mailto:[12][17]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
> 4. mailto:[13][18]howardpos...@ca.rr.com
> 5. mailto:[14][19]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> 6. mailto:[15][20]kalei...@gmail.com
> 7. [16][21]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 8. [17][22]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> --
>
> References
>
> 1.
[1][23]https://kommunikationsdienste.t-online.de/redirects/email_app_an
droi
d_sendmail_footer
> 2. [2]mailto:[24]praelu...@hotmail.com
> 3. [3]mailto:[25]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
> 4. [4]mailto:[26]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
> 5. [5]mailto:[27]howardpos...@ca.rr.com
> 6. [6]mailto:[28]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> 7. [7]mailto:[29]kalei...@gmail.com
> 8. [8][30]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 9. [9][31]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 10. [10]mailto:[32]praelu...@hotmail.com
> 11. [11]mailto:[33]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
> 12. [12]mailto:[34]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
> 13. [13]mailto:[35]howardpos...@ca.rr.com
> 14. [14]mailto:[36]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> 15. [15]mailto:[37]kalei...@gmail.com
> 16. [16][38]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 17. [17][39]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>
--
References
1.
[40]https://kommunikationsdienste.t-online.de/redirects/email_app_andro
id_sendmail_footer
2. mailto:[41]praelu...@hotmail.com
3. mailto:[42]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
4. mailto:[43]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
5. mailto:[44]howardpos...@ca.rr.com
6. mailto:[45]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
7. mailto:[46]kalei...@gmail.com
8. [47]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
9. [48]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
10. mailto:[49]praelu...@hotmail.com
11. mailto:[50]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
12. mailto:[51]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
13. mailto:[52]howardpos...@ca.rr.com
14. mailto:[53]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
15. mailto:[54]kalei...@gmail.com
16. [55]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
17. [56]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1.
https://kommunikationsdienste.t-online.de/redirects/email_app_android_sendmail_footer
2. mailto:lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
3. mailto:lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
4. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
5. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
6. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
7. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com
8. mailto:lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
9. mailto:lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
10. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com
11. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
12. mailto:kalei...@gmail.com
13. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
14. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
15. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com
16. mailto:lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
17. mailto:lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
18. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com
19. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
20. mailto:kalei...@gmail.com
21. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
22. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
23. https://kommunikationsdienste.t-online.de/redirects/email_app_androi
24. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com
25. mailto:lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
26. mailto:lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
27. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com
28. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
29. mailto:kalei...@gmail.com
30. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
31. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
32. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com
33. mailto:lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
34. mailto:lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
35. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com
36. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
37. mailto:kalei...@gmail.com
38. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
39. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
40.
https://kommunikationsdienste.t-online.de/redirects/email_app_android_sendmail_footer
41. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com
42. mailto:lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
43. mailto:lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
44. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com
45. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
46. mailto:kalei...@gmail.com
47. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
48. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
49. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com
50. mailto:lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
51. mailto:lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
52. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com
53. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
54. mailto:kalei...@gmail.com
55. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
56. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
