This will bother some, but I really mean it.
Here is a perfect match that should be evident enough to prove Indian
influence.
Really, this time.
Anyway, when you listen to it, you will hear that the voice is singing
bastarda diminutions.
That means that not only one voice is used but all voices in the
composition.
The composition by Guami is so evidently based on Raga Bhimpalasi that
the two tracks match perfectly.
Imagine these diminutions by a Viola player, a cornettist, or a lute player.
It is certainly the style of the Women of Ferrara.
Regardless of what you think, if you can pull those off, you will be
highly regarded in the Early Music scene.
https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/gioseffe-guami-canzon-vigesimaquarta-raga-bhimpalasi-kaushiki-chakraborty
On 12.08.19 04:04, Mathias Rösel wrote:
You might want to have a try and improvise in French baroque lute
style. It's not about harmony.
Mathias
__________________________________________________________________
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--- Original-Nachricht ---
Von: Tristan von Neumann
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Anachronistic playing style - Adriaenssen
Datum: 11.08.2019, 23:14 Uhr
An: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Thank you Sean, this is a well-pondered thought.
I very much appreciate this comment.
You are absolutely right. In one episode of me:mo, Lukas Henning talked
about a source describing the music of a lutenist (I guess, need to
watch that again),
who obviously used devices as great dynamics, weird rhythms and other
gimmicks not found in any printed or written source.
One can find these rhythms and devices in Ganassi's instructions. You
need very good timing skills to pull off those garlands of 3, 5, 7, 10
based divisions. The fact that there are those legitimate devices, but
they don't appear in printed compositions, makes your assumption very
plausible.
If you enjoy playing this stuff, I highly recommend these pieces:
[2]http://gerbode.net/sources/CH-Bu_university_library_basel/ms_F.IX.70
_Wurstisen_lute_book/v5_passamezzos/pdf/
(earlier I said it's Vol. 6, sorry for that)
You will even find moving powerchords (No. 46), and other fun stuff
like
switching to "Francesco Ricercar mode".
So to thread that needle, there is plenty of unique devices to be
discovered in manuscripts. These can be used for improvisation,
together
with the division practice derived from Ganassi and Ortiz.
To me this seems very sufficient and covers all possible quirks of
fancy
improvisation, and inspires the player to find similar ones.
Improvising in style means: it must fall into the harmonic language.
For
the 16th century, you will find all possible chords and dissonances to
them in the work of Albert de Rippe. There's none greater when it comes
to exploring which clashes of notes still sound amazing.
Later, chromatic linking of chords may be an additional device in
improvisation. See this passamezzo by Biagio Marini about 6:10min in:
[3]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=px7oIWCHC1c
Around 1600 you can use basically any dissonance within the mode/key
(or
even beyond). You just need to wait for the next possibility to resolve
it. Don't try to correct it right away, and the resolution will sound
fancy but correct.
Seconda Prattica comes to mind, and this practice is described in
theoretical works that deal with improvisation. Most lutenists don't
read books about wind instrument based theory, but a cornetto player
wouldn't have used different divisions than a lutenist, so reading
these
books might be rewarding.
But I very rarely see people improvise. This needs to be changed :)
I think people who improvise a lot also have a different attitude when
playing from score, somehow there is more immediacy to it and less
artificiality.
:)
T*
On 11.08.19 21:05, Sean Smith wrote:
> The answer may lie with the undocumented performers and performing
> groups. They improvised and different groups would have varied
success
> among tastes of various patrons, situations and other qualifiers.
> Sometimes these techniques would surface in the printed materials,
mss,
> accounts or iconography. Some of this survives as we have found.
> Getting back to the passages that your first illustrated, I'm
wondering
> if that was a printed way of saying "this is how you can get the most
> sound/volume for these parts, should you need them." It's almost a
> strum but we know that never happened, right? Or suppose you were
> duetting with a cittern player who wanted a solo and you were called
on
> to imitate his accompaniment?
> A lot of Adr./Phalese (1563 onwards) is performance-based and the
> all-inclusiveness suggests to me that many of the volumes were meant
> and advertised as "all-you-need" for one's lutering needs, the Adr of
> '84 and '92 being the epitomes of the concept. So I think there are
> examples of everything we need to understand the art of lute playing
as
> Adr./Phalese saw it in his time. While they are complete in their
way,
> it needs (or wants) the player to expand on it.
> If we played Adr. perfectly then we would be no Idifferent than the
> other player (or group) who plays Adr. perfectly. Then, as now, how
> would the player sell himself as better other than bringing something
> new to the table? I'm not suggesting we be anachronistic or bring in
> influence from places that would not have been influential at the
time
> by any means but there are enough hints that the printed page is not
> sacrosanct.
> If we improvise there is the pitfall of those rightly saying "but
that
> note/passage/instrument/combination wasn't played". On the other hand
> there is the stronger suggestion for lutenists that you must learn to
> improvise in their tradition (notes and instruments). We, in the 21st
> century must thread that needle.
> So, yes: that passage feels anachronistic but only because we --now--
> can't see what possibilities they felt were available to them or the
> demands made of them.
> Sean
>
> On Sun, Aug 11, 2019 at 10:25 AM Tristan von Neumann
> <[1][4]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote:
>
> Dear Joachim,
> yes I know, I have played all of those. But really I am interested
> in
> this kind of off-beat figuration that thrives on thirds.
> Dowland and maybe Huwet used those sometimes. Huwet was also from
> the
> Netherlands and I read Dowland befriended Huwet in WolfenbÃÆÃ ¼ttel.
> I don't know who influenced whom, but maybe you know?
> On 11.08.19 18:36, Joachim LÃÆÃ ¼dtke wrote:
> > Dear Tristan,
> >
> > just in short (I am traveling and I don't have the sources at
> hand): You may not find exactly the same accord arpeggios (another
> anachronism, ;) ), but you will find similar things in different
> sets of variations on Conde Claros and other tunes and models.
> >
> > Best
> >
> > Joachim
> >
> >
> > -----Original-Nachricht-----
> > Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Anachronistic playing style - Adriaenssen
> > Datum: 2019-08-10T12:55:41+0200
> > Von: "Tristan von Neumann" <[2][5]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>
> > An: "[3][6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" <[4][7]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> >
> > Dear Joachim,
> >
> >
> > I used this term to give the idea for someone who can't just look
> at it,
> > you know this is erbsenzahlery :)
> >
> > And where is the same accuracy when trying to show me an example?
> ;-)))
> >
> > By Condes Claros you mean those of Valderrabano I guess?
> >
> > They are fancy, but not that fancy. I was looking for the exact
> figuration.
> >
> > Trying to explain the figuration by saying that variations need
> > variation (...duh!) doesn't really tell me anything. ;-)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 10.08.19 11:23, Joachim LÃÆÃ ¼dtke wrote:
> >> Dear Tristan,
> >>
> >> to be truely Alberti one would have to be a bass, ;), and it's
> anachronistic to connect such figurations to Alberti because the
> source precedes the time of Alberti (at least a bit).
> >>
> >> You will find similar things in Spanish variations of e.g. Conde
> claros. I think one could describe what we find there as a possible
> solution to the question how to write (or play or improvise)
> variations on a rather slow moving progression, if you have the
> scale runs already through.
> >>
> >> Best
> >>
> >> Joachim
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original-Nachricht-----
> >> Betreff: [LUTE] Anachronistic playing style - Adriaenssen
> >> Datum: 2019-08-09T02:38:53+0200
> >> Von: "Tristan von Neumann" <[5][8]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>
> >> An: "[6][9]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" <[7][10]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> >>
> >> The "Passomeso in Basso" from Adriaenssen's Pratum Musicum 1584
> features
> >> two variations in a very odd anachronistic/visionary style:
> >>
> >> It's basically the idea of "Alberti bass".
> >>
> >> (m. 114 - 119 and 225 - 238)
> >>
> >>
>
[8][11]http://gerbode.net/sources/Adriaenssen/pratum_musicum_1584/pdf/6
1
> _passomeso_in_basso.pdf
> >>
> >>
> >> This style seems to come from nowhere, and it has to my knowledge
> never
> >> been used afterwards.
> >>
> >> But I haven't looked at everything.
> >>
> >>
> >> Does anyone know any similar passage in that era?
> >>
> >> And: is there a recording of the piece? It is probably the most
> >> elaborate and creative Passamezzo ever.
> >>
> >> I use it as exercise - feels like training for a marathon.
> >>
> >>
> >> :)
> >> T*
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> To get on or off this list see list information at
> >> [9][12]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >>
> >>
> >
> > à ¯Ã »Ã ¿
> >
>
> --
>
> References
>
> 1. mailto:[13]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
> 2. mailto:[14]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
> 3. mailto:[15]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> 4. mailto:[16]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> 5. mailto:[17]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
> 6. mailto:[18]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> 7. mailto:[19]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> 8.
[20]http://gerbode.net/sources/Adriaenssen/pratum_musicum_1584/pdf/61_p
assomeso_in_basso.pdf
> 9. [21]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>
--
References
1.
https://kommunikationsdienste.t-online.de/redirects/email_app_android_sendmail_footer
2.
http://gerbode.net/sources/CH-Bu_university_library_basel/ms_F.IX.70_Wurstisen_lute_book/v5_passamezzos/pdf
3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=px7oIWCHC1c
4. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
5. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
6. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
7. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
8. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
9. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
10. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
11. http://gerbode.net/sources/Adriaenssen/pratum_musicum_1584/pdf/61
12. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
13. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
14. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
15. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
16. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
17. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
18. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
19. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
20.
http://gerbode.net/sources/Adriaenssen/pratum_musicum_1584/pdf/61_passomeso_in_basso.pdf
21. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
