Yes, there are several chords which require using a finger (any finger)
to cover two or more courses, and Waissel even gives us fingerings which
involve using the second finger to hold to top two courses, in a context
where we would use a barré. See my blog:
https://luteshop.co.uk/all-fingers-and-thumbs/
Martin
On 28/04/2020 23:15, Guilherme Barroso wrote:
Yes, indeed.
For me, it makes more and more sense to view these intabulations as a
way to show the whole vocal piece and not something to be performed
exactly as written.
About the Barrés with any other finger then the first. Has anyone
seen a historical source discuss this? I don't recall seeing one.
Em ter., 28 de abr. de 2020 Ã s 23:04, <[1]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de>
escreveu:
This is really quite an extreme example! But maybe with a different
technique it would be possible e.g. to play the first chord?
Sometimes,
I have the impression that they used also Barrés with the second or
third finger, which would (theoretically) make it possible to play
the
first chord. Just today I found an similar chord in a piece by
Hurel,
which would need a barré with the second or fourth finger. I'll
hopefully get my new renaissance lute this or next week (7courses,
85cm), I'm very curious to try it! :-) and then still we have to
consider a world without 1. printed full scores and 2. recordings.
So,
in order to study a piece of music, you would have to perform - or
read
it - just by yourself. Maybe this was really kind of "full score"
for
them - you can use it to study the music and counterpoint, and if
you
actually want to perfor it you still can decide to omit some notes.
Am 28.04.2020 21:25 schrieb Guilherme Barroso:
> Dear Yuval,
>
> Thanks a lot for your answer.
>
> I have a 7c course 60cm lute and it does not get much easier at
some
> places. Of course with your lute, even worse.
>
> But there are some parts that even with a small lute, it is just
not
> possible.
>
> I attach in this email an example from Barbetta's publication from
> 1582. In the marked passage, already the first chord is not
possible
> to play (this chord appears often in this publication and also in
> Terzi's books), the next two bars are not better. even if you find
a
> way to do it by some kind of arpeggio, how make it sound musical?
>
> Em ter., 28 de abr. de 2020 Ã s 20:50, <[2]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de>
> escreveu:
>
>> Dear Guilherme,
>>
>> it's interesting what Philippe writes about Il Fronimo, it would
be
>> nice
>> to talk with him about all this stuff. I met him some weeks ago,
>> and
>> he's the only guy I know who isn't lutenist at all and can read
all
>> kind
>> of tablature fluently - quite crazy!
>> To respond to your question I can only offer a view on my
personal
>> experience as well as some thoughts about it: From my practical
>> experience I had to ask myself exactly these questions when
Martina
>> and
>> me were recording our CD with diminutions. She played them on
>> traverso -
>> so I could just play the madrigals without the canto, which
worked
>> quite
>> well - but also with violone, and for this I had to play all the
>> voices.
>> Since at this time I had only a fairly big lute (10 courses,
67cm),
>> I
>> decided to step away from perfectly playing all voicing with a
>> perfect
>> voiceleading, and instead making an arrangement which kept the
>> madrigals
>> recognizable, but at the same time quitting some tones of the
inner
>>
>> voices and making the intabulations/arrangements more idiomatic
for
>> the
>> lute, because above all I though it was more important to get a
>> good
>> phrasing and to make good music instead of hurting my hand. If
>> you're
>> interested in the choices I made, you can find some of the pieces
>> we
>> recorded on youtube.
>> Regarding the amount of instructions about making owns
>> intabulations,
>> Philippe's argument seems not at all unlikely for me. But at the
>> same
>> time I'm asking myself about the differences in taste then and
now
>> (maybe for them it was most important to render the madrigal
>> exactly? At
>> the end, they lived in a sphere where only polyphonic music
>> existed, so
>> maybe they would have heard the mistakes made by making the
>> intabulations more suitable for the lute?), and also about which
>> role
>> the size of the lute plays. Did you try to play the "unplayable"
>> parts
>> on a smaller lute? You could just use an capo in your second or
>> third
>> fret, just to try how it feels with a small instrument.
>>
>> All the best,
>> Yuval
>>
>> Am 28.04.2020 15:12 schrieb Guilherme Barroso:
>>> Dear Lute collective,
>>> For some time i've been thinking about some aspects about the
>>> intabulation of vocal pieces and i would like to know your
>> ideas.
>>> When we look to the gigantic repertoire of vocal intabulations
>> to
>>> the
>>> lute we encounter several pieces that are incredibly difficult
>> to
>>> play.
>>> Intabulations done by Molinaro, Terzi, Barbetta, for example,
>> some
>>> times present passages that are not only very demanding
>> technically
>>> but also with impossible chord positions. Canguilhem, in his
>> book
>>> about Galilei's Fronimo treatise, says that the main goal of
>>> Galilei's
>>> intabulations was to study the counterpoint and composition,
>> not to
>>> be
>>> played. He even compares Galilei's intabulation of Vestiva i
>> Colli
>>> for
>>> solo lute (where the madrigal is complete with all the voices)
>> and
>>> another version for lute and bass solo (where the lute part is
>>> extremely simplified with supression of voices). The lute and
>> voice
>>> version for sure was intended to be performed while the other
>> might
>>> be
>>> intended to be studied. The act of intabulating would be the
>> same
>>> as
>>> making a score for study purposes.
>>> There are a lot of intabulations in the repertoire that are
>> more
>>> concerned in maintaining all the voices of the original work
>> then
>>> making some concessions to adapt it better to the instrument.
>>> Of course, we are dealing with a huge repertoire from several
>>> composers
>>> and several places with specific differences. Le Roy, for
>> example,
>>> is
>>> more willing to make changes to adapt to the instrument, he
>> says
>>> that
>>> the "playability and beauty should come first".
>>> But even very complex intabulations were clearly meant to be
>> played,
>>> like the Terzi intabulations of vocal pieces that present a
>>> "Contrapunto" from another lute. Terzi intabulations clearly
>> prefer
>>> to
>>> maintain the original vocal piece in the intabulation in spite
>> of
>>> the
>>> diffculty to play.
>>> What do you think about this?
>>> When you play this repertoire, do you try to keep all notes?
>> Do you
>>> omit certain notes to make it more playful? Do you make
>> decision
>>> based
>>> on the musical flow?
>>> I am very curious to hear your ideas.
>>> All the best,
>>> --
>>> Guilherme Barroso
>>> [1][3]www.guilherme-barroso.com [1]
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> References
>>>
>>> 1. [4]http://www.guilherme-barroso.com/ [2]
>>>
>>>
>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>>> [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html [3]
>
> --
>
> Guilherme Barroso
> [6]www.guilherme-barroso.com [1]
>
>
>
> Links:
> ------
> [1] [7]http://www.guilherme-barroso.com
> [2] [8]http://www.guilherme-barroso.com/
> [3] [9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
Guilherme Barroso
[10]www.guilherme-barroso.com
--
References
1. mailto:yuval.dvo...@posteo.de
2. mailto:yuval.dvo...@posteo.de
3. http://www.guilherme-barroso.com/
4. http://www.guilherme-barroso.com/
5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
6. http://www.guilherme-barroso.com/
7. http://www.guilherme-barroso.com/
8. http://www.guilherme-barroso.com/
9. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
10. http://www.guilherme-barroso.com/
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