Movable type was indeed a factor - though some printers also employed a type face with the lines incorporated.
The point is that writing tablature ms on lines was a common general practice earlier in the sixteenth century and then, of course, became general after the opening decades of the seventeenth. __________________________________________________________________ From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu <lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf of Tristan von Neumann <tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> Sent: 04 August 2020 15:22 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Tablature letters on lines - was Re: e vs c It seems to me that moveable type doesn't seem to have anything to do with the decision. The types with the line already included (as in scores) are on-line (Phalèse). If you print in two steps with the lines first then the letters, above-line seems more common, maybe easier to align. On 04.08.20 09:52, Martyn Hodgson wrote: > Dear Martin, > I agree that the supposed low case 'r' is merely an earlier way of > writing 'c'. However I'm not one with you on writing tablature letters > in the spaces rather than on the lines. > Writing on the lines is generally the earlier form and, indeed, > persisted through to the instrument's decline: the practice of setting > the letters in the spaces seems to have appeared when movable type was > employed (though not universally). > In practice I far prefer the more common historical practice (almost > universal from the seventeenth century for engraved music as well as > ms)) of writing on the lines - a big advantage is that even with quite > a narrow system the letters can still be reasonably large by extending > into the neighboring lines without interfering with ease of recognition > of the 'home' line. Tablature letter 'f' is a good example. > regards > Martyn > > On Tuesday, 4 August 2020, 07:36:56 BST, Martin Shepherd > <mar...@luteshop.co.uk> wrote: > The "r" is in most English lute MSS and in all the lute song prints as > well. In fact it's not an "r" at all, just another way of writing "c". > My biggest readability complaint is writing the letters on the lines > rather than between them - a habit which seems to have become quite > common with some modern editors of lute music. And just to open up a > few > more worms, I find French tablature very convenient because (although I > read all kinds of tab fluently) I can write in fingerings, which can > get > very confusing in Italian tab. > M > On 04/08/2020 02:27, T.J. Sellari wrote: > > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > > From: Tristan von Neumann <[1][1]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> > > Date: Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 8:14 AM > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: e vs c > > To: [2][2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu <[3][3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > > Ah yes. I forgot about those. > > I hate English prints. As if they were deliberately trying to make > > things unreadable. > > Morlaye is the best imho. > > On 04.08.20 01:30, Denys Stephens wrote: > > > Dear Sean & Tristan, the Robert Dowland ÃÆ Â¢Varietie of lute > lessons' > > and Barley's ÃÆ Â¢New book of tablature' both have ÃÆ Â¢r' for ÃÆ Â¢c' > although the > > latter is engraved rather than typeset. I suspect that the > Varietie of > > lute lessons may have had an undue influence in modern times > because it > > was the first facsimile that many of us who were involved in lute > music > > in those days owned in the Scott edition. > > > Best wishes, Denys > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > >> On 4 Aug 2020, at 00:02, Tristan von Neumann > > <[4][4]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote: > > >> > > >> Good question Sean... > > >> > > >> I think there's no real development in this. > > >> > > >> For example, Fuhrmann's Testudo Gallica&Germanica uses > "on-line" > > fonts, > > >> and "c". > > >> > > >> This is very annoying sometimes if you want to play from the > > facsimile... > > >> > > >> In manuscripts, Marsh Lute Book uses c, it's often very > confusing > > next > > >> to the e. > > >> > > >> French "above line" prints from earlier decades (Morlaye, Le > Roy) > > also > > >> use c but I find those prints very readable. > > >> > > >> I don't recall "r" in prints, but maybe I missed some. > > >> > > >> > > >>> On 04.08.20 00:56, Sean Smith wrote: > > >>> Dear all, > > >>> There's a long tradition of scribing the cipher 'r' in > place > > of 'c' in > > >>> manuscripts of lute tablature. It's quick and easy and > serves > > to > > >>> differentiate a 'c' from an 'e'. My question is, did this > > carry over > > >>> into historic printed tablatures with standardized > typefaces? > > Can > > >>> anyone suggest examples? Lute, guitar, mandora, etc? > > >>> I don't recall any in Renaissance prints--tho I could > easily > > be > > >>> wrong--but I know I don't have enough experience with > baroque > > >>> tablatures! > > >>> Tia, Sean > > >>> > > >>> -- > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> To get on or off this list see list information at > > >>> [5][5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >> > > Actually, the letter that looks like an "r" is actually a "c" in > > English secretary hand. That's probably why the "r" is featured in > > English sources. > > If you scroll down to the chart of miniscule letters here > > > [6][6]http://morristownnhpmuseum.blogspot.com/2016/10/paleography-for-e > ver > > yone-cracking-old.html you'll see various form(s) of c. > > Tom > > > > -- > > > > References > > > > 1. mailto:[7]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de > > 2. mailto:[8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > > 3. mailto:[9]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > > 4. mailto:[10]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de > > 5. [11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > 6. > [12]http://morristownnhpmuseum.blogspot.com/2016/10/paleography-for-eve > ryone-cracking-old.html > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > [13]https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > -- > > References > > 1. [1]mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de > 2. [2]mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > 3. [3]mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > 4. [4]mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de > 5. [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 6. [6]http://morristownnhpmuseum.blogspot.com/2016/10/paleography-for-ever > 7. [7]mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de > 8. [8]mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > 9. [9]mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > 10. [10]mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de > 11. [11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 12. [12]http://morristownnhpmuseum.blogspot.com/2016/10/paleography-for-eve ryone-cracking-old.html > 13. [13]https://www.avast.com/antivirus > Virus-free. [14]www.avast.com -- References Visible links: 1. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de 2. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 6. http://morristownnhpmuseum.blogspot.com/2016/10/paleography-for-ever 7. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de 8. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 9. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 10. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de 11. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 12. http://morristownnhpmuseum.blogspot.com/2016/10/paleography-for-everyone-cracking-old.html 13. https://www.avast.com/antivirus 14. https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail Hidden links: 16. https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail 17. file://localhost/net/ifs-users/lute-arc/L1742571-3862TMP.html#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2