I think we're coming to the end of this thread and I'd like to thank
everyone for their myriad facts and insights.
best wishes, Sean
On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 7:47 AM MJ Hodgson <[1]mjhodg...@hotmail.co.uk>
wrote:
Movable type was indeed a factor - though some printers also
employed a
type face with the lines incorporated.
The point is that writing tablature ms on lines was a common
general
practice earlier in the sixteenth century and then, of course,
became
general after the opening decades of the seventeenth.
__________________________________________________________________
From: [2]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
<[3]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf of Tristan
von
Neumann <[4]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>
Sent: 04 August 2020 15:22
To: [5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu <[6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Tablature letters on lines - was Re: e vs c
It seems to me that moveable type doesn't seem to have anything
to do
with the decision.
The types with the line already included (as in scores) are
on-line
(Phalèse).
If you print in two steps with the lines first then the letters,
above-line seems more common, maybe easier to align.
On 04.08.20 09:52, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
> Dear Martin,
> I agree that the supposed low case 'r' is merely an
earlier way
of
> writing 'c'. However I'm not one with you on writing
tablature
letters
> in the spaces rather than on the lines.
> Writing on the lines is generally the earlier form and,
indeed,
> persisted through to the instrument's decline: the
practice of
setting
> the letters in the spaces seems to have appeared when
movable
type was
> employed (though not universally).
> In practice I far prefer the more common historical
practice
(almost
> universal from the seventeenth century for engraved music
as well
as
> ms)) of writing on the lines - a big advantage is that
even with
quite
> a narrow system the letters can still be reasonably large
by
extending
> into the neighboring lines without interfering with ease
of
recognition
> of the 'home' line. Tablature letter 'f' is a good
example.
> regards
> Martyn
>
> On Tuesday, 4 August 2020, 07:36:56 BST, Martin Shepherd
> <[7]mar...@luteshop.co.uk> wrote:
> The "r" is in most English lute MSS and in all the lute
song
prints as
> well. In fact it's not an "r" at all, just another way of
writing
"c".
> My biggest readability complaint is writing the letters on
the
lines
> rather than between them - a habit which seems to have
become
quite
> common with some modern editors of lute music. And just to
open
up a
> few
> more worms, I find French tablature very convenient
because
(although I
> read all kinds of tab fluently) I can write in fingerings,
which
can
> get
> very confusing in Italian tab.
> M
> On 04/08/2020 02:27, T.J. Sellari wrote:
> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> > From: Tristan von Neumann
<[1][1][8]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>
> > Date: Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 8:14 AM
> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: e vs c
> > To: [2][2][9]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
<[3][3][10]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> > Ah yes. I forgot about those.
> > I hate English prints. As if they were deliberately
trying
to make
> > things unreadable.
> > Morlaye is the best imho.
> > On 04.08.20 01:30, Denys Stephens wrote:
> > > Dear Sean & Tristan, the Robert Dowland ÃÃ
¢Varietie of
lute
> lessons'
> > and Barley's Ãà ¢New book of tablature' both have ÃÃ
¢r' for
Ãà ¢c'
> although the
> > latter is engraved rather than typeset. I suspect
that the
> Varietie of
> > lute lessons may have had an undue influence in
modern times
> because it
> > was the first facsimile that many of us who were
involved in
lute
> music
> > in those days owned in the Scott edition.
> > > Best wishes, Denys
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > >> On 4 Aug 2020, at 00:02, Tristan von Neumann
> > <[4][4][11]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Good question Sean...
> > >>
> > >> I think there's no real development in this.
> > >>
> > >> For example, Fuhrmann's Testudo Gallica&Germanica
uses
> "on-line"
> > fonts,
> > >> and "c".
> > >>
> > >> This is very annoying sometimes if you want to
play from
the
> > facsimile...
> > >>
> > >> In manuscripts, Marsh Lute Book uses c, it's
often very
> confusing
> > next
> > >> to the e.
> > >>
> > >> French "above line" prints from earlier decades
(Morlaye,
Le
> Roy)
> > also
> > >> use c but I find those prints very readable.
> > >>
> > >> I don't recall "r" in prints, but maybe I missed
some.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> On 04.08.20 00:56, Sean Smith wrote:
> > >>> Dear all,
> > >>> There's a long tradition of scribing the
cipher 'r'
in
> place
> > of 'c' in
> > >>> manuscripts of lute tablature. It's quick
and easy
and
> serves
> > to
> > >>> differentiate a 'c' from an 'e'. My
question is,
did this
> > carry over
> > >>> into historic printed tablatures with
standardized
> typefaces?
> > Can
> > >>> anyone suggest examples? Lute, guitar,
mandora,
etc?
> > >>> I don't recall any in Renaissance
prints--tho I
could
> easily
> > be
> > >>> wrong--but I know I don't have enough
experience
with
> baroque
> > >>> tablatures!
> > >>> Tia, Sean
> > >>>
> > >>> --
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> To get on or off this list see list information
at
> > >>>
[5][5][12]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > >>
> > Actually, the letter that looks like an "r" is
actually a
"c" in
> > English secretary hand. That's probably why the "r"
is
featured in
> > English sources.
> > If you scroll down to the chart of miniscule letters
here
> >
>
[6][6][13]http://morristownnhpmuseum.blogspot.com/2016/10/paleograph
y-for-e
> ver
> > yone-cracking-old.html you'll see various form(s) of
c.
> > Tom
> >
> > --
> >
> > References
> >
> > 1. mailto:[7][14]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
> > 2. mailto:[8][15]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> > 3. mailto:[9][16]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> > 4. mailto:[10][17]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
> > 5.
[11][18]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > 6.
>
[12][19]http://morristownnhpmuseum.blogspot.com/2016/10/paleography-
for-eve
> ryone-cracking-old.html
> >
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> 8. [8]mailto:[28]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
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