On Wed, Apr 04, 2018 at 11:07:42PM +0000, Uwe Stöhr wrote: > Am 31.03.2018 um 19:37 schrieb Scott Kostyshak: > > > I've included something along these lines in the newest proposal for a > > dialog. > > Dear Developers, > > yes, I take it personally that you cannot trust me as Windows developer who > has experiences with LyX under Windows for more than 10 years. I gave LyX > lectures to students and did a lot to help users over years. > > I invested much time to write the details for interested people in the LyX > Wiki and our docs but not to molest average users. So what is your problem? > That I hide info from users? No, I just decide where I give info. Or why do > you think I created many different Wiki pages and expert LyX documentation > files?
I think you did all of that work and spent all of that time because you care a lot about LyX users. > I am sorry but I cannot understand not to release the Win installer just for > a dialog or not. Is this that important not to release our hard work over > months for LyX 2.3.0 for Windows users? Certainly not. In my opinion it is that important, because updating LyX could break something else on a user's computer. As I discussed [1], I think the consequences could be very bad for users affected by this, especially average Windows users because it is hard for them to understand why something that used to work (compilation of a document) no longer works, and what the problem is, and how to fix it. The average Windows user would have a lot of trouble with that, and imagine that they have to deal with that when they face a deadline. > The situation is with a car: the majority just use it. They press the ON > button or turn a key to start the motor and drive to e.g. a supermarket. > They are not interested how the motor start is internally done or even what > is below the car hood. Their task is to drive to the market. But what you > want is that everybody should know what is under the hood. Why? Why can't > people just use things? I think that analogies can be useful in making points, but only if they fit correctly. In this analogy what is the part that is analogous to a MiKTeX update breaking something? > What I do with the installer, is providing a LyX that just works to be able > to focus on your task to write the text you want or have to write. I don't see how providing a dialog works against this goal. > Please leave the expert point of view that users have to know background > things. This is not how it works in the Windows world. Or does the > LibreOffice Win installer bother you with background stuff? No, they don't > bother users but give all expert info on their Wiki pages - so exactly as I > do and did. Did installing LibreOffice update something else? Again, I just don't understand the analogy. If you agree that a MiKTeX update has a chance of causing a problem, please represent that element in some way in your comparisons. If you think that a MiKTeX update cannot cause problems, then OK let's focus on that issue instead of mixing up other issues. > I am currently abroad (and will be the next 2 weeks) and cannot read all > mails you forwarded to me. OK. > It is not very helpful to make a survey on a mailing list since, as I > explained, most users don't know or use mailing lists. Those who write there > have usually some background knowledge. But why does my installer not have a > special dialog - because average users won't understand it because of lack > of background knowledge. I have found the feedback from lyx-users to be very helpful. We are doing our best to come up with a message that is as clear as possible without causing confusion. I have learned a lot from the replies there, and I think we are making good progress. > If you cannot trust my expertise - and it seems so I'm confident that you have more experience than I do helping Windows users. Perhaps you have more experience than any single LyX developer for helping Windows users. But I do not think that the distance is as large as you think, and I think that as a group, we have a lot of combined experience. I do not agree with your claim that just because many of us use Linux, we are incapable of making advice for what we think is best for Windows users. I help LyX Windows users on lyx-users, on http://tex.stackexchange.com, and on https://latex.org/forum/. My family uses Windows, my friends use Windows, my colleagues use Windows, and my students use Windows. And I am often the technical support for people in all of those categories. The large majority of people I help with computers are Windows users, not Linux users. I teach about 80 students a year, and they need to use their computer to work on assignments. I am their technical support. I am not teaching computer science students. Some of the students have very little knowledge of computers [2]. I just helped a student on Monday who had trouble figuring out how to find the location of a file they downloaded, and how to move a file to a different folder. They were amazed when I told them they could use "cut" and "paste" in a file browser. I actually do not know much about Windows power users since they never ask me for help since I don't know enough about Windows to help them. So if anything, my knowledge is limited to the average Windows user. I'm working with the lyx-users list and doing my best to make a dialog that is not confusing. I would really appreciate it if you helped us, since I think you would have some good advice. But the users on lyx-users have given helpful advice already. I know you say that they are above-average users, and I agree, but we are all doing our best to think about the average user and design the dialog for the average user. What else can we do? Working towards an official Windows binary is very important to me. That is why I am spending time on the dialog and am participating in these debates about whether a dialog is necessary. It is not fun. But in my opinion we cannot just do nothing and accept the current situation. As for releasing the binaries that you made with no dialog, I do not agree with that. And the other LyX developers do not agree with that. We made a decision as a team, and you did not follow that decision. How can we, as a team, release something that we do not agree with? How can we put binaries without a dialog on the website if the majority of LyX developers disagree with that? That is not the way to work in a team. I would understand if we were asking you to put a virus in the Windows installer, or something like that. In such an extreme case, I would understand why you would refuse to do something even if the majority of developers were in favor of it. But I do not understand why you think that adding a dialog would be so destructive. You have not even participated in the discussion on the dialog, so your argument is that every single one of the 1 million possible ways of phrasing a dialog would confuse the average Windows user so much that they would cancel the installation and not realize that they could just restart the installation? At some point, we have all disagreed with something the team has wanted to do. We have all been convinced that we're right and everyone else is wrong. But part of being in a team is to do what the team decides, even if you disagree. The LyX developers have agreed that we should have a dialog. From the feedback on the lyx-users list, my interpretation is that there is agreement that we can come up with a clear dialog. I just received an email from Christian Schenk, the developer of MiKTeX, in which he says that a MiKTeX update can break compilation of documents, and that an update of MiKTeX should not be done without a warning. He says that only if the user agrees it is OK to update MiKTeX. So when you say to "trust" you, let me ask you this: should I ignore all of the other LyX developers? Should I ignore the users on lyx-users? Should I ignore the advice of the developer of the software that this discussion is all about? > then I can move my > installer to Github and announce it as separate program. I really hope that you do not choose to do that. I think that as a team we can make a lot of progress and create a LyX all together that is best for the user. Regards, Scott [1] https://www.mail-archive.com/search?l=mid&q=20180316161313.tya2qhypktblk43d%40steph [2] I actually think that students these days know how to use a computer less than students 10 years ago. Because smart phones and tablets can do everything, students do not learn to use a computer well.
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