On Wed, Dec 03, 2003 at 04:36:26PM +0000, John Levon wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 03, 2003 at 05:09:28PM +0100, Andre Poenitz wrote:
>
> > Now, what's the exact difference between C-b and C-b?
> >
> > I can't follow you here?
>
> Um, we were comparing :
>
> > > > Cut, create new \emph inset, go there, paste.
> > > > "select object, apply change"
>
> i.e. inset splitting.
Inset splitting could be a new lfun bound to whatever key you want.
\foo{xxxx|xxxx} + <Key> -> \foo{xxxx}|\foo{xxxx}
or even
\foo{xx[xx|]xxxx} + <Key> -> \foo{xx}[xx|]\foo{xxxx}
where [xx] is the selection.
> [...]
> So, first, we have only a subset of the total user population U.
Sure.
> [...]
> * "the mailing list looks scary"
> * "I'm too busy"
> * "I suppose the designers know what they're doing, who am I to disagree?"
> * "I'm not using the latest LyX, perhaps it's fixed"
> "Sod this, I'm going back to scientific word (or whatever)"
> * "I don't know how to describe my problem well"
> "It's not important enough to report"
We get complaints on other issues, so the only valid point on this list
so the marked (*) items do not apply. The last one would confirm my
point that the UI is more or less ok. Leaves one. Hard to count those...
> Taking all the above into consideration, I hope you can see that the
> absence of complaints does not imply satisfaction, either conscious or
> unconscious.
I take it as strong indication.
> The feedback process is a very lossy one indeed. We simply CANNOT,
> as designers, rely on feedback as anything other than one of several
> inputs into the design process.
>
> > Start with
> >
> > s|s
> >
> > Type <C-e>aaaaa aaaa<C-e>
> >
> > That's two.
> >
> > There are a few more variations on that 'feature'.
>
> You won't find me arguing that this stupid "affect the word by
> default" thing isn't dumb. But this is trivially fixable, as opposed
> to the significant problems of using insets. So it is not an argument
> against ranges per se; it's an argument against having this stupid
> feature.
So remove this feature and I'll see how it works without.
> No. I'm arguing that an Edit menu item that inserts some new object is
> baffling to the user. The insets are objects to the user; ranges are
> not.
So leave it in the Insert menu. You are not telling me that there is a
UI related thing of wihich _you_ cannot decide whether it goes to Insert
or to Edit?
> > Please give a concrete example.
>
> If I want to expand or decrease a selection, it's often nice to have
> some leeway on one end, thus I can select the start of a word, and
> push the mouse over to somewhere inside the region, and select Italic,
> done.
Well. Now I don't understand the desciption.
> Of course LyX gets this wrong anyway, it decides to flip rather than
> just apply. A bug.
So you want to apply to a larger range than necessary and expect it to
work out nicely? I am really lost now.
> > So how come people don't complain?
>
> If you'll allow me to rephrase this as "Why isn't this currently a
> problem?", the answer is because insets currently represent disjoint
> parts of a text: footnotes, margin notes, minipages. It thus makes no
> sense to able to select across a boundary, because that boundary does
> not intersect a region of text as it appears in the output.
And it will staty like this even on a sub-par level.
> > Viewing documents as tree is not the worst approach I've seen.
>
> I didn't say it was the worst. I can certainly construct worse :)
[I have the impression you are already trying ;-)]
> > Bad enough. So these points of your argument are based on some
> > features currently available for noun style that you've admittedly
> > never used?
>
> Um, no. I, naturally, have heavily used physical character styles in
> the absence of LCS. The thing with Noun is just a testing thing
> because it's currently implemented both ways in CVS lyx. I am sure you
> must be aware of this and are just being facetious for some reason.
You are comparing usability of boxes and main text based on the current
implementation of LCS. This is not fair given their relative maturity.
> > You could try font changes in mathed which might be a bit smoother
> > to handle than a two-week old feature in the outside world.
>
> I can't even unapply a change of some text to bold in mathed without
> running round the houses.
What's wrong with <Pos1> <Backspace>?
Andre'
